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File: 1549473738337.png (276.55 KB, 858x1636, updates.png)

random gaming rant Chewy!!Twilight SparkleCountry code: ponies-twilight.png, country type: ponyflag, valid:   42079313[Last 50 Posts]

I've been thinking about this a bit lately. The people I'd call "gamer boomers" (gamers in the 25-35yo age range who yearn for the GLORY DAYS of DOOM and QUAKE). It drives me nuts when they go on about how "BACK IN MY DAY WE DIDN'T NEED UPDATES/DOWNLOADS, YA JUST POPPED THE DISC/CARTRIDGE IN AND PLAYED!" which is true but I think it is important to illustrate the difference between a game with cut content versus a game that is receiving quality post-launch support.

I like the idea of online video games as an ever-evolving, ever-improving experience. Why bother making a rehashed sequel if you can take what is already good and just make it better? Now of course I don't condone things like RNG/loot crates, but there are happy mediums to be had. In particular, CoD: Black Ops 4 has entirely done away with loot crates and replaced it with "tiers" which are essentially a stream of various kinds of content (emblems, camos, character skins, some new weapons etc.) that are progressed primarily through gameplay--with no RNG, you can literally see everything that you will be getting ahead of time. It takes about an hour to go up one tier, but you also skip one automatically for your first match win of each day. So you could get to tier 50 in 25 days (just over three weeks) by playing for only an hour a day as long as you won at least one of your matches. I think this is entirely fair--grindy, but far, far better than RNG loot crates.
Anyways, the point I was trying to get to, was that I think these "streams of content" as they are sometimes called are actually very beneficial for prolonging the lifespan and enjoyment and variety of a game as long as it is done properly. Properly, as in free or at least cheap, and no RNG.
Another thing with these gamer boomers is that they'll rail on games for needing too many mandatory updates, but then when they go and start a new character on Morrowind, they'll be like "ok first I gotta install 20 graphics enhancing packs, 15 texture packs, 30 weapon/armor/enemy packs, 40 bug/glitch fix packs, 25 AI improvement packs" etc. and it's like, do you not see the irony there?
No game is perfect at launch. It's just not possible. Not even my favorite games are perfect to me. So getting mad over a day one update, or a week one update, or multiple updates a month etc. is just dumb because the majority of the time they are for the purpose of making an experience that you paid for BETTER.
Gamer boomers need to accept that times are different now and you can't expect it to be like the classic/old-school days. Yes there are some shittier business practices now, but lumping every new model together as "trash trash trash" is really juvenile. Some of the best games of all time were made this decade.
This post was edited by its author on .

Shiny Puppy (Element of Fleas)Country code: blank.gif, country type: ponyflag, valid: 1 42079321

Old PC gaming, it was a glorious time. My first online games were Worms 2 and Quake 2. Both of which seeming to have withstood time as Worms is still putting on new games and Quake 2 was just used for proof of concept ray tracing.

I find it a little ironic about the mention of not making a "rehashed sequel" when you have Call of Duty as your example photo. The games are essentially reskins with a new setting, selling for full price.

I don't recall any quake updates beyond really the initial v3.12 to v3.20. The only things we downloaded were game mods, custom maps, and custom skins, and we were on our way. I don't think zQuake or whatever the graphics mod came out until well after I was in college. I don't remembers a Worms update at all, just playing it over dial-up.

Later on, there was also UT/UT2K4, with 2K4 being the first thing I remember updates being pushed for gaining new content.

Think about what the updates are for though. Are they for new content or is it because they didn't actually finish their game? Is it to download things onto your system that your need to pay for as DLC? Or is it to actually add new things at no cost or add features?

Being the both dumb and cheap bastard I am, we'll take Destiny 2 and Fortnite.

Destiny 2: aka loading screens the game. Content is added somewhat regularly but always at a cost. The initial free for PSN users is probably pushing 100$ because they released a full story DLC for things that Monster Hunter would consider part of their monthly free updates.

Fortnite: Updated all the god damn time, but equally for new features/modes as well as bug fixes. But being still "early access", bug fixes are expected. It is, however, all at a cost of 0$. And unlike Destiny, isn't full of weapons that make PVP broken if you don't have it versus not having it. Which is lost on a lot of games that reward you for getting a random drop I suppose, as opposed to being good with what the maps provide.

Chewy!!Twilight SparkleCountry code: ponies-twilight.png, country type: ponyflag, valid: 1  42079322

>>42079321
>I find it a little ironic about the mention of not making a "rehashed sequel" when you have Call of Duty as your example photo.
I get that, I didn't mean to say CoD sequels aren't rehashed, I was just using the photo to show the stark contrast between what update cycles for old CoD games used to be like and what they are like now.
>The only things we downloaded were game mods, custom maps, and custom skins
How is that really different, though? If all those things were added through updates from the developer, would it be an issue?
>Think about what the updates are for though. Are they for new content or is it because they didn't actually finish their game?
I know, that's why I specifically acknowledged the difference between new content and cut content.
As far as Destiny goes, yeah that game is pretty much ass.
Fortnite, I don't know much about how they do things other than that they make all their money off of loot crates/DLC.

Country code: ponies-octavia.png, country type: ponyflag, valid: 1  42079323

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My main issue with "gaming millennials" I guess we will call them, is their gaming ethics. That is to say, they have none. They don't care about the heart of the game anymore. They will use the cheapest, easiest strategy they can find and just repeat it over and over, even if it sucks all the enjoyment out of the game.

The 7 Deadly Sins of Online Gaming

This is an older video, but it still is true to this day. Especially the last one, which most millennial gamers do incessantly.

There are specific games I will not play specifically because of this, Smash Bros being one of them.
This post was edited by its author on .

Country code: ponies-octavia.png, country type: ponyflag, valid: 1  42079324

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>>42079322
>Fortnite, I don't know much about how they do things other than that they make all their money off of loot crates/DLC.

Believe it or not, I actually saw Fortnite action figures in Target yesterday.

AnonymousCountry code: blank.gif, country type: ponyflag, valid: 1 42079325

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>>42079323
They will use the cheapest, easiest strategy they can find and just repeat it over and over, even if it sucks all the enjoyment out of the game.

Kids these days have never experienced the glory of a no-sword quest or 4 white mage/4 thieves run.

Country code: ponies-octavia.png, country type: ponyflag, valid: 1  42079326

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>>42079325
The word they have for it now is "The Meta".

I think what it is, is that in the early days of gaming we didn't have YouTube or collections of resources on how other people played the game, so we had to figure it out on our own, learn the game on our own, and understand the game from our own unique perspective.

Nowadays kids just look up the 'pro strats' for any given game and just try to replicate them. They don't actually learn how to play the game. They don't care about figuring it out for themselves or coming up with their own unique strategies. They just copycat what is 'the best' strat and do that over and over again without care or thought, which makes most online PvP games boring and repetitive. You ALWAYS know what the enemy is going to do because they do the same damn thing everyone else does because they are a bunch of brainless sheep.

The worst though is when the 'best strat' is just something so overpowered and broken that it's nearly impossible to counter, because even if you know what is coming there is nothing you can do about it, and this is when it gets infuriating.
This post was edited by its author on .

LisbonCountry code: blank.gif, country type: ponyflag, valid: 1 42079328

*sip*

🐈🐈Dodger🐈🐈!FGiFL0EclsCountry code: blank.gif, country type: ponyflag, valid: 1 42079329

>Gamer boomers need to accept that times are different now and you can't expect it to be like the classic/old-school days
No they don't. If something was good before and its bad now, you should want the good thing back.

Macaroni !RevGiOKgRoCountry code: ponies-twilight.png, country type: ponyflag, valid: 1  42079330

>>42079329
And lumping 'all that is new' with 'all that is bad' is also juvenile, as was said.
This post was edited by its author on .

🐈🐈Dodger🐈🐈!FGiFL0EclsCountry code: blank.gif, country type: ponyflag, valid: 1 42079331

>>42079330
If someone sees all these countless AAA games that ship UNFINISHED and complains about quality DLC released at a reasonable price, they might be schizophrenic

Pinkamina WBIY!Im9SILLYXoCountry code: ponies-pinkie.png, country type: ponyflag, valid: 1  42079335

File: 1549501793740.jpg (432.35 KB, 1536x1536, 1952554__safe_artist-colon-pon…)

Old games were objectively better in every way.

As long as you ignore the thousands of terrible broken games that ended up in the bargain bin.

FtB!cpbuwI00VoCountry code: blank.gif, country type: ponyflag, valid: 1 42079359

Literally no one:
Chewy: This thread

Country code: blank.gif, country type: ponyflag, valid: 1 42079360

File: 1549531678455.png (497.22 KB, 674x832, 076.png)

*Adjusts glasses*

Akshully, what the fuck is a gamer boomer, and why would you expend enough energy to get mad at such stupidity?

a lost pony !piNKiEPie.Country code: ponies-derpy.png, country type: ponyflag, valid: 1  42079361

>>42079313
Why, in my day we had to change floppy disks every time we went into a town or dungeon.

What. We did.

Chewy!!Twilight SparkleCountry code: ponies-twilight.png, country type: ponyflag, valid: 1  42079369

>>42079326
>>42079325
>>42079323
>ethics
I see people say this all the time, how gamers in the past were more "honorable" but it's such BS, there have been cheaters and glitch abusers and OP weapon abusers since online gaming's inception.
The only difference there is now is that the internet allows people to discover the cheats or cheap methods faster. But it's not like strategy guides didn't exist in the past.
People these days also push challenge in video games to the maximum level with things like speedruns or trying to achieve certain things in the most disadvantaged/difficult way possible, and they do this BECAUSE of the internet, because now they have an audience, whereas in the past it could only serve for shallow personal satisfaction.
Your conception that there was a time where gamers were more ethical/moral/honorable/fair/nice etc. is mere nostalgia.

>>42079331
>UNFINISHED
So you didn't read anything I wrote? I have said like three times now that I'm not defending cut content.

!SATSUkIQg2Country code: blank.gif, country type: ponyflag, valid: 1 42079370

File: 1549553454853.jpg (96.11 KB, 600x569, 12-winged dragonfly.jpg)

>hard things are fun
>competition is fun
>not just running through the simulation once on easy mode for the scenery before discarding it and moving on to the next
This is why I quit the pasttime.
Frustrating myself and comparison to others just for passive consumption dosen't entertain me at all.

Games are just the new sports. I only got into them in the first place because I hated sports.
This post was edited by its author on .

🐈🐈Dodger🐈🐈!FGiFL0EclsCountry code: blank.gif, country type: ponyflag, valid: 1 42079382

>>42079369
It really sounds like you're defending something that doesn't need defending because people are attacking cut content.

Country code: blank.gif, country type: ponyflag, valid: 1 42079383

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>>42079369
You're wrong there. There are two specific types of people who play games. There are people that respect the game and people who don't. Most gaming millennials don't respect the game anymore. They just want the easiest path to victory without any effort. It's sickening.

Pic related.

AnonymousCountry code: blank.gif, country type: ponyflag, valid: 1 42079384

File: 1549561618263.jpg (129.68 KB, 735x1072, asdf.jpg)

You seem to be conflating the abusive practice of charging to unlock on-disk "premium content" and bonus costume packs and "retailer exclusives" with proper "Expansion Packs" which may or may not be produced by the same studio, like Ultima: Forge of Virtue or Quake: Scourge of Armagon and Dissolution of Eternity or Jedi Knight: Mysteries of the Sith or Doom: Thy Flesh Consumed or Baldur's Gate: Tales of the Sword Coast or Quake II: The Reckoning and Ground Zero or Half-Life: Opposing Force and Blue Shift or Duke Nukem: The Birth.

I don't think any older, veteran gamers complain about proper expansions and DLC, so long as they aren't blatantly intended in bad faith to squeeze extra bucks out of loyal fans from the outset.

And FTR, I'm a bit annoyed by Fortnite "events" that someone who genuinely cares about is likely to get screwed by Real Life getting in the way and not being able to log in for.

But then, people who care about Fortnite are definitively filthy casuals, and so don't matter.

I just miss the the TF2 Harvest maps and wish they weren't all ghost towns.
This post was edited by its author on .

Chewy!!Twilight SparkleCountry code: ponies-twilight.png, country type: ponyflag, valid: 1  42079386

>>42079383
>There are two specific types of people who play games. There are people that respect the game and people who don't
and they have both always existed together
>Most gaming millennials don't respect the game anymore.
is this claim based on actual evidence or personal anecdotes?
that's a really cringey comic, too. "I'm mad because my hobby got popular." would be like if I got mad about how my favorite music genre (hip-hop) is now the most popular/dominant/best-selling etc. genre. Yes sure the mainstream shit gets watered down/"casualized" but there's still a ton of fantastic shit, innovations, modern classics etc.
just like for every Lil Pump of 21 Savage there is a Kendrick Lamar and a Danny Brown, for every Fortnite and Assassin's Creed there is a GTA V and a Witcher 3.
This post was edited by its author on .

Epic Mount!Hero.tYu2gCountry code: blank.gif, country type: ponyflag, valid: 1 42079387

File: 1549570546538.jpg (48.28 KB, 1191x670, BLU Scout.jpg)

>>42079384
I haven't played TF2 in awhile (some sort of issue with atikmdag.sys that I can't fix) but arn't the servers still active?

I'd like to get back into TF2 when I can. Especially map-making.

Country code: ponies-octavia.png, country type: ponyflag, valid: 1  42079392

File: 1549572028775.jpg (140.52 KB, 744x1392, Woman-Masked-Gas-Mask.jpg)

>>42079386
I don't think you have any position to stand on here since you have fully admitted you don't respect the game.

If you're trying to tell me that you deserve to be allowed to ruin other people's experience just because you like to ruin yours, you are wasting your time.

If you want to cheat or cheese in a single player game, go ahead. The only person you're abusing is yourself and some AI that doesn't give a shit. But when you do it to other actual people that are actually trying to have a satisfying experience, you have no excuse.

Chewy!!Twilight SparkleCountry code: ponies-twilight.png, country type: ponyflag, valid: 1  42079393

>>42079392
>I don't think you have any position to stand on here since you have fully admitted you don't respect the game.
admitting I'm a "casual" =/= not respecting the game.
>If you're trying to tell me that you deserve to be allowed to ruin other people's experience just because you like to ruin yours, you are wasting your time.
How am I ruining other people's experiences?
>If you want to cheat or cheese in a single player game, go ahead. The only person you're abusing is yourself and some AI that doesn't give a shit. But when you do it to other actual people that are actually trying to have a satisfying experience, you have no excuse.
I have never once said that I abuse anyone else in games. I don't cheat when I play online, in fact I have much more fun trying my best to win fairly. In fact I often play, at least in the games I enjoy, with setups that would not be considered part of "the meta", as in, I'm not always spamming OP shit, and I'm certainly not cheating. I only "cheat" in SP games, generally ones that literally have cheats included by default (TES, Fallout, GTA etc.).
I don't know where you're getting the idea that because I enjoy "casual" games, I am the same as an actual cheater or that I don't respect games. What even is "respecting" video games to you? Are players supposed to never be allowed to use "easy" weapons? Are they supposed to never shittalk? Are they supposed to always intentionally abandon the "meta" and put themselves at a disadvantage just to be "hardcore"? Are they supposed to hang a poster of Gaben on their bedroom wall and kiss it every night before bed?

Country code: ponies-octavia.png, country type: ponyflag, valid: 1  42079394

File: 1549573561245.png (598.04 KB, 514x562, 1549476565615.png)

>>42079393
Chucking a buttload of grenades in random directions and then killing yourself just to restock your grenades and do it again is not playing within the spirit of the game and is abusing other players who try to play properly.

Doing shit like this is not respecting the game.
This post was edited by its author on .

Chewy!!Twilight SparkleCountry code: ponies-twilight.png, country type: ponyflag, valid: 1  42079395

>>42079394
>Chucking a buttload of grenades in random directions and then killing yourself just to restock your grenades and do it again
Ok? What game are you even referring to here? I would agree in terms of some games yet at the same time I'm curious as to how you define "spirit of the game". Who gets to define that? When does a tactic that clearly isn't cheating become "abuse"?
To take CoD for an example, or at least older CoD games, grenade spam was just a natural common part of everything and it didn't bother most dedicated players because it was possible to still do well in spite of it, and in some cases part of the fun.

Is there a set of commandments some master player wrote that universally defines what "respecting the game" even is? Wouldn't it vary drastically from game to game anyways?

Country code: ponies-octavia.png, country type: ponyflag, valid: 1  42079396

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>>42079395
There is a reason why CoD has the reputation for being shit on by most of the serious gaming community and this right here is exactly why. It's full of people who have absolutely no respect for the game and want a perpetual easy mode where they can be spoon-fed awards for doing the most mundane and mediocre of tasks.

People that enjoy that environment are welcome to do so, but do not have any right whatsoever to try and tell people that actually take their games seriously how games should be played.

Chewy!!Twilight SparkleCountry code: ponies-twilight.png, country type: ponyflag, valid: 1  42079397

>>42079396
But many CoD players do take CoD seriously. CoD has pros and noobs within its own environment. It has a meta. It has defined abuse versus what would be fair play.

This is why I am asking what defines respect for a game. What the rules for respect are, and if they can be universal (I don't think they can be, because what is considered fair/commonplace in CoD doesn't seem to be in other games).

You are not answering my questions about a subject you proclaim to understand so we will soon come to a standstill.

Country code: ponies-octavia.png, country type: ponyflag, valid: 1  42079398

File: 1549575218107.png (136.49 KB, 300x250, superthumb.png)

>>42079397
>This is why I am asking what defines respect for a game.

Having respect for a game is playing the game the developers intended for it to be played. Grenades are meant for flushing out an encamped enemy that you can't reasonably take on because they have too much of a terrain advantage. It's a equalizer tool. They are meant to be used sparingly when the situation calls for it. If you run in, throw every grenade you have and then purposely die just to restock them you are NOT playing within the spirit of the game, or in the way it was meant to be played. That is disrespecting the game and the other people who are playing it the proper way.

I don't understand why this is a hard concept for you to grasp.

Chewy!!Twilight SparkleCountry code: ponies-twilight.png, country type: ponyflag, valid: 1  42079399

>>42079398
>Having respect for a game is playing the game the developers intended for it to be played.
well that's fucking retarded because one of the best things about online games is how the players can find creative ways to make the game more fun/interesting that the developers didn't expect.
for example how Cliffy B intended for Gears Of War to essentially be a boring "hide behind cover and fire with ARs"-fest, but the players realized that wallbouncing with shotguns was far more effective. Cliffy B. hated the players doing this so much that the gnasher shotgun was massively nerfed and the lancer AR massively buffed in the sequel, but players rejected this so strongly that they completely reverted this decision.
so in that case, what the developers themselves considered "abuse" ended up being what fans came to love most about the entire series.

Country code: ponies-octavia.png, country type: ponyflag, valid: 1  42079400

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>>42079399
>players realized that wallbouncing with shotguns was far more effective.

Those people are absolute dickheads.

I understand his rage at the situation and I would have done the same exact thing, and if the nerfs got reverted I would have stopped the series completely, or at least left the development team.

Fuck those people.

Chewy!!Twilight SparkleCountry code: ponies-twilight.png, country type: ponyflag, valid: 1  42079401

>>42079400
Are you serious right now?

Country code: ponies-octavia.png, country type: ponyflag, valid: 1  42079402

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>>42079401
Dead serious.

People who abuse exploits can fuck right off.

Chewy!!Twilight SparkleCountry code: ponies-twilight.png, country type: ponyflag, valid: 1  42079403

>>42079402
IT'S NOT AN EXPLOIT. They're not hacking/cheating/glitching etc. What they did was entirely fair, it was just a strategy the developers did not expect and it literally takes more skill than what they intended. The easiest way to weed out a scrub in Gears Of War is by how good they are at wallbouncing. It's literally the gold standard of how hardcore fans measure genuine skill in the game.

Country code: ponies-octavia.png, country type: ponyflag, valid: 1  42079404

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>>42079403
I just watched a video on what wall bouncing is and it is TOTALLY an exploit. The movement they are using is designed to give them cover, not make them more maneuverable than the game intended you to be. What this is, basically, is abusing an animation glitch to fuck with your character's default momentum.

This is a class A example of an exploit in it's fullest form, right up there with animation canceling.

This is grade A bullshit and I would have patched it immediately. If I was a developer and saw players doing this I would have been outraged as well.

This is right up there with the Battlefield dive shoot thing where players would dive forward while shooting in order to make their hitbox smaller. God people that do shit like this piss me the fuck off.
This post was edited by its author on .

Chewy!!Twilight SparkleCountry code: ponies-twilight.png, country type: ponyflag, valid: 1  42079405

>>42079404
I don't even know what to tell you. This is one of your worst takes EVER. Wallbouncing/gnasher battles are literally what makes Gears Of War fun. The majority of the hundreds of thousands of people who play it regularly will tell you that. The developers even agreed in time and for later sequels ended up specifically focusing on making wallbouncing more smooth for players. If that doesn't speak to its quality I don't know what does. The vast majority of players who don't wallbounce completely suck at the game and stand in one place trying to spray people down like a dumbass. They are the equivalent of the worst players in games you enjoy (like Overwatch for example). This is because the developers had no fucking idea what they were doing originally and the fans ended up making the game better.
Why do you put so much stake in what the developers say/want? What about the players themselves, do they not matter? Is a game supposed to be solely a vehicle for the players to ride in driven by the developers over terrain that the latter has deemed safe?

Country code: ponies-octavia.png, country type: ponyflag, valid: 1  42079407

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>>42079405
Essentially what you're telling me is that the cheating got so pronounced in the game that everyone was also required to cheat just to stay competitive and if you don't cheat you basically don't stand a chance, and so many people were doing it that the developers had to cave in and make it into a feature because people had basically fucked their game and there wasn't anything they could to do about it.

Seems about right.

When an exploit gets so out of control that there is zero counter to it other than also performing the same exploit, the game is dead and lives only as a zombie for players to fuck.
This post was edited by its author on .

Chewy!!Twilight SparkleCountry code: ponies-twilight.png, country type: ponyflag, valid: 1  42079408

>>42079407
>cheating >cheating>cheating>cheating>cheating>cheating>cheating>cheating>cheating>cheating>cheating>cheating>cheating>cheating>cheating>cheating>cheating>cheating>cheating>cheating>cheating>cheating>cheating>cheating>cheating>cheating>cheating>cheating>cheating>cheating>cheating>cheating>cheating>cheating>cheating>cheating>cheating>cheating>cheating>cheating>cheating>cheating>cheating>cheating>cheating>cheating

It isn't, and wasn't, cheating. It isn't a hack. It isn't a glitch. It didn't break any rules. Given all those FACTS, how is it "cheating"?

Country code: ponies-octavia.png, country type: ponyflag, valid: 1  42079409

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>>42079408
The diving forward animation is designed to put you behind cover. If you are canceling the animation half way through just to use the momentum to do something else, you are not using it for it's intended purpose and therefore breaking the rules the game expects you to play by.

That Animation should not be cancelable. I can only see it being legitimately canceled if you realized half way through that the cover you were going for was not optimal and you had to back out, but purposely going for cover with the INTENT of canceling it into something else with the PURPOSE of using that momentum to your advantage is straight up blatant cheating.
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!SATSUkIQg2Country code: blank.gif, country type: ponyflag, valid: 1 42079410

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>>42079409
Sux to be a dev who was incompetent enough to write a game with holes to exploit. The mosquitoes don't make the swamp; we make the swamp, and the mosquitoes inevitably breed there.

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>>42079410
Again, I would have patched it to remove the ability for the cover animation to be canceled.

It's actually very difficult to build something that people won't find a way to abuse. One of the skills of being a developer is trying to figure out the most assholish way you can to break what you've built.
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Chewy!!Twilight SparkleCountry code: ponies-twilight.png, country type: ponyflag, valid: 1  42079412

>>42079409
>you are not using it for it's intended purpose and therefore breaking the rules the game expects you to play by.
There is and never was a rule ANYWHERE in the game that said "You shall not cancel the cover animation for X reason." Furthermore, canceling the animation is/was a completely legitimate thing to do. It's literally a simple trigger pull. There's no secret combo or some BS like that. There is no valid argument as to why it shouldn't be allowed to exist.
Furthermore the original Gears Of War didn't even have the ability to cancel the animation, and players wallbounced anyways. Cancelling the animation was something the developers put in after wallbouncing became a thing.

It takes FAR more skill to wallbounce than it does to play the game the way the original developers intended. Why is it a bad thing that they adapted to the game to how the fans figured out it should work?

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>>42079412
Is wallbouncing taught anywhere in any tutorial in the game?

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>>42079411
>abuse
Functionality you didn't mean to build in is still functionality. Just cause it's a wrench doesn't mean someone won't find a way to use it as a hammer if need be.
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>>42079414
That person needs to be fired then.

Chewy!!Twilight SparkleCountry code: ponies-twilight.png, country type: ponyflag, valid: 1  42079416

>>42079413
Wtf does that have to do anything? Tons of games don't even have tutorials. Are you trying to imply that if something's not in a tutorial, then it's an exploit? Because that's downright absurd. That would make a massive amount of core mechanics of many games classified as "exploits" (and does it like, maybe every game that doesn't have a tutorial an exploit in its entirety?)

a lost pony !piNKiEPie.Country code: ponies-derpy.png, country type: ponyflag, valid: 1  42079417

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>>42079416
Stop cheating and play fair, Chewy.

(joking)

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>>42079416
It's not a core mechanic. Nor was it ever intended to be. The game does not train you how to do it.

Because of this, any player who does automatically has a significant advantage over anyone who does not, through no fault of the person who does not, because the game never taught or instructed them how to do it. This is what an exploit is. It's something that gives one player an advantage over another that was never intended to be part of the game, like glitching yourself out of the map.

The game teaches you how to aim, move and fire, and how to use the different weapons according to how the game expects them to be used. Any player that plays the game in a legit way will never come across wall bouncing during normal play, nor is it ever explained in any capacity. So if you are a player that plays the game normally and you get in a multiplayer match with people who are bugging out and jerking back and forth and you have no idea what the fuck is going on, that is not your fault. You are playing properly. You are not the bad player. The other players are just abusing holes in the mechanics to do things they were never intended to do.
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Chewy!!Twilight SparkleCountry code: ponies-twilight.png, country type: ponyflag, valid: 1  42079420

>>42079419
>any player who does automatically has a significant advantage over anyone who does not
if they are good at it. A dumbass spraying with a lancer can pretty easily take down a wallbouncer who doesn't know what they're doing. That's where the skill gap of the game comes into play. It literally does not matter that it wasn't what the developer intended, or that the game didn't train you, and if you can't wallbounce in Gears, you effectively ARE the bad player.

>like glitching yourself out of the map.

not even remotely comparable

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>>42079420
So if you don't abuse an exploit, you are a bad player?

This is the toxic mindset that drove me away from most PvP style games. They are no longer fun or challenging. It's all about who can abuse the game the hardest.

You will not change my mind on this. I've seen what it is. It is an exploit, and it will continue to be an exploit until it is actually added to the game as a core mechanic that all players are notified of by the game when they play the game.

Personally I'm glad I never bought any of the GoW games now that I know this, I would have felt cheated out of my money. Luckily the majority of this kind of douchebagery happens on console, and I don't play console games. PC developers are generally more responsive to dealing with this kind of bullshit.

Not always, but I've noticed this kind of shit happens mostly on console games.

Chewy!!Twilight SparkleCountry code: ponies-twilight.png, country type: ponyflag, valid: 1  42079423

>>42079421
I'm done. Your point of view on this is absolutely baffling. You can't convince me either, especially if you don't even play the game. Ironically I feel like you are viewing this whole thing from an actual casual perspective--an appeal to the developers rather than your, or any number of players who MASSIVELY outnumber the developer's, genuine passion for games themselves.
You're someone who draws inside the lines, I guess, at least when it comes to gaming, and I find that mindset incredibly bland. Abiding by what the developers want strictly is just the other side of the coin on which the opposite is players coming up with a toxic meta.

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>>42079423
I have a genuine passion for games, and I treat them with respect when they deserve them. That respect comes in the form of not abusing any exploits that would break the gameplay.

I don't do cheap and easy. I did play a couple GoW games with friends before and I had fun, but no one was doing this wall bounce bullshit, and if they had been, I would have quit playing online entirely.

This kind of thing is a blatant disrespect for the spirit of the game and using the excuse 'its more fun this way' is like turning a memorial structure into a skate park because 'its more fun'. That may be, but that fun is being had by blatantly being disrespectful to the original creator and the original idea.

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>>42079423
And yes, I am a 'color inside the lines' type of person because I don't know if you noticed, but all GOOD ARTISTS color inside the lines of their work. They don't draw something and then scribble randomly over it with splotches of color. Anyone who does that and pretends to be an artist is a complete hack.

No offense to you, personally, Chewy, but I'm not going to sit here and be lectured about how games should be played by someone who thinks 1.5 hours is a 'long gaming session.'
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Mk17Country code: blank.gif, country type: ponyflag, valid: 1 42079428

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>>42079313
Here is my take.

I like glitches. I'll use Goldeneye 64 as an example.

So goldeneye was a very rushed game made by an un- experienced dev team, and because of that, there are a TON of left over artifacts and glitches in that game. When i was a kid it gave me a nearly endless amount of mystery and fun. They were like easter eggs, they gave insight on how game development took place and how games themselves worked. They gave rise to fun conspiracies and fun. There were whole websites dedicated to unlocking secrets and glitches and stories behind hidden assets and items.

Idk, if it was all patched and polished, i dont think i would have gotten as much out of that game, or ones like it as i did.

Games are a work of art, and sometimes its the mistakes that make a work great. Imagine if musicians went and re-tooled their songs, or if painters went and changed something, or if authors and script writers went back and made things "better" and denied access to their old work.

Look at what they did to the original Star Wars movies.

I get patching multiplayer games when there is something the community doesn't like, and i get fixing game breaking bugs, but there is a time and a place, and its not always the right course of action in my opinion.

Melee is another great example, there are a ton of things that make that game great to SO many people, that would have for sure been patched out of the game right away if it were possible.
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Macaroni !RevGiOKgRoCountry code: ponies-twilight.png, country type: ponyflag, valid: 1  42079429

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>respecting an abstraction of a category over the actual enjoyment of the thing itself

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>>42079429
When you are sharing that experience with others, yes. If you like to ad-lib over a movie MST3K style, and you're doing it on your own TV with friends who enjoy it, by all means have fun with it.

If you do it in a movie theater full of people you don't know who came to actually watch the fucking movie, you're an asshole.

See the difference?
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Pony_PuristCountry code: blank.gif, country type: ponyflag, valid: 1 42079476

>>42079313

The problem with most modern games is that they're simply boring. In the Golden Age of video games, most games were inspired, fun, and pure. Unfortunately, capitalism destroys everything new, and video games are no different. Today, the production of video games has become a mechanized process, outputting boring, uninspired games for the sole purpose of getting people addicted to them.

It's tragic, really...

But there is some hope... the next Golden Age of entertainment is coming soon... in the form of virtual reality. It's just too bad entirely new mediums have to invented in order for new Golden Ages to appear. But that will pass too...

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>>42079420
>>42079421
Wow the exploit argument is stupid. Just because a game mechanic isn't immediately explained to a player or is something they expect, doesn't make the mechanic an exploit. Easiest example being Team Fortress 2's rocket jumping, that originated from other games and was recognized as a legitimate mechanic by game devs. They very fact that it was never removed or acted upon is proof that it's legitimate as far as devs consider what their game to be.

>>42079476
If it wasn't for your le capitalism, you wouldn't have gotten any of the games you played OR virtual reality. Profit seeking makes different groups of people try different tactics to reach it. Just because you live in a day and age with a few shitty major titles doesn't give you the right to ignore the amazing games you've most likely played over the years. Sift through the shitty games that were made with a "mechanized process" and play the good ones.

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>>42079489
>Wow the exploit argument is stupid. Just because a game mechanic isn't immediately explained to a player or is something they expect, doesn't make the mechanic an exploit. Easiest example being Team Fortress 2's rocket jumping, that originated from other games and was recognized as a legitimate mechanic by game devs. They very fact that it was never removed or acted upon is proof that it's legitimate as far as devs consider what their game to be.

Rocket Jumping in TF2 is not an exploit because it's actually designed to be used as part of the Soldier's kit. If you play through the soldier's tutorial, it will teach you how to rocket jump, and in the official Meet the Soldier video produced by Valve, it shows him rocket jumping. It may have been built off an exploit originally found in Quake, but in TF2 it's actually a legitimate mechanic that is taught to the player and explained to be part of how the character is supposed to work.

When it comes to this wall bouncing stuff, there is none of that. No official documentation, no tutorials, no mention of it in any form in the official media, nor does it ever get presented to the player during any part of the game proper. It's something that PLAYERS discovered they could do that the devs never intended them to be able to do, and the fact is they TRIED to actually prevent players from doing it and the backlash was so heavy they were forced to revert it, not because they WANTED to actually make it a feature of the game.

This is the distinct difference. As a side note, I've personally never been fond of rocket jumping which is why I never play soldier, but I will not call it an exploit in TF2 because it's actually intended to work as it does in the game. People are presented with it as part of the game and people expect it when they go into the game. Wall bouncing does not check any of these boxes, so for me, I consider it an exploit.

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>>42079490
My argument was never about TF2 to begin with.

Rocket Jumping in Quake was never intended as a core mechanic apart from "Rocket blasts push players back". Yet it's been used to jump around and is one of the first games to use rocket jumping as a movement method. Yet it was never a "core mechanic" of the game.
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🐈🐈Dodger🐈🐈!FGiFL0EclsCountry code: blank.gif, country type: ponyflag, valid: 1 42079493

I really wanted to be interested in speedruns, but the biggest turnoff was all the people that just broke the game so they could walk to the final boss in 5 minutes, or make the credits roll or something. That's not playing the game at maximum efficiency, its just an exploit, and its fucking boring to watch.

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>>42079493
I think that exploit usage itself can be a category of fun, but in a much different form and that kind of speedrun should not be considered in the same category as an exploit-free speedrun.
Choco Mountain: The History of Mario Kart 64's Most Infamous Track

🐈🐈Dodger🐈🐈!FGiFL0EclsCountry code: blank.gif, country type: ponyflag, valid: 1 42079495

>>42079494
Hahaha, N64 games are the most broken things in all of existence, watching them get picked apart like a buffalo corpse is its own category of high art.

Pony_PuristCountry code: blank.gif, country type: ponyflag, valid: 1 42079496

>>42079489

the problem is there are no good games created by a mechanized process. they are all trash and so are the people who play them.

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>>42079495
I haven't played N64 so I wouldn't know. But I think said art can exist with other consoles and platforms too. It just depends on what you expect out of your entertainment, and if your entertainment properly reflects it.

>>42079496
Well you are also trash and fuck you for saying such a ridiculous statement about what other people enjoy. There are plenty of good games created by a mechanized process, doesn't matter now many more of them are terrible.
Learn to sift through the shit to find the gold, and stop being such a naysayer.
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>>42079497
Its worth it for Banjo-Kazooie alone

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>>42079498
I thought getting Yooka Laylee would be the same thing but noooooo

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>>42079499
HELL no, NO, NO NO NO

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>>42079500
Now I've got a useless meme game in my library that's boring as heck.

Pony_PuristCountry code: blank.gif, country type: ponyflag, valid: 1 42079502

>>42079497

*neighsayer

and it's a fact that the people who play games created by a mechanized process are trash - it's not like im judging them for being trash. it takes the existence of trash to smell the roses.

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>>42079502
Maybe you're objectively retarded because you say retarded things. It's not like I'm judging you or anything, it's just a fact.
Alternatively, point to a game you like and I'll tell you how it's made by a mechanized process, my retarded friend.

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>>42079501
Please don't let that scare you away from Banjo. I didn't play until I was like 18 or 19, but its so fun and so timeless. I don't think I lost any value from playing it as an adult, it makes you feel like a little kid playing your favorite video game for the first time.

>>42079502
Is that why you can't smell your diaper?

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>>42079505
Maybe I'll get an emulator thing one day and try it, I wanna hear the witch lady and her weird speech for myself.

🐈🐈Dodger🐈🐈!FGiFL0EclsCountry code: blank.gif, country type: ponyflag, valid: 1 42079507

>>42079506
Every time you get a game over, you get to look at her young titties. Literally every inch of this game is 10/10 entertaining, I never ever skip the intro or the game over.

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>>42079507
W-what
I am confused and my curiosity is aroused
I couldn't find that in the store for Nintendo Switch, could I? I wish.

🐈🐈Dodger🐈🐈!FGiFL0EclsCountry code: blank.gif, country type: ponyflag, valid: 1 42079509

>>42079508
no, none of the Rare games :(((((

Pony_PuristCountry code: blank.gif, country type: ponyflag, valid: 1 42079510

>>42079504

when you say it, it kind of sounds like you're judging.

and i think we need to define mechanized process a bit...

"mechanized process" in this case refers to games which are designed, from start to finish, based on outside data on what has worked in the past for video games (i.e. trying to replicate the success of organically-created Golden Age games) and combining it with other data such as what's trending on Twitter or whatever... thus creating a sort of Frankenstein-game, which appeals to a spiritual demographic entirely other than the demographic appealed to by Golden Age games... so you see, Golden Age games were grown organically, as there were no standards for video games yet created and they were an entirely new medium... so while they drew from past games, the new medium is what makes them organic and fresh, and these types of games appeal to intelligent, pure, inquisitive l33t children. Modern games, being mechanized in nature, appeal to stupid, poorly-raised children who lack the ability to discern between inspired and uninspired games

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>>42079509
Eeeech they had ONE job.

>>42079510
Oh sorry if it came across that way, one can't choose what disability they have.
I noticed you avoided naming a game you like.
I also noticed you purposefully defined "mechanized process" as if it's a negative thing. The truth is why WOULDN'T you do basic research before starting to make your game?
>Modern games, being mechanized in nature, appeal to stupid, poorly-raised children who lack the ability to discern between inspired and uninspired games
Again making an implication that all games made these days are under the umbrella of "modern games" that are all made in the exact same way. I can't help you if you don't know how to discover new games other than looking at Gamestop shelves.

Pony_PuristCountry code: blank.gif, country type: ponyflag, valid: 1 42079512

>>42079511

>Oh sorry if it came across that way, one can't choose what disability they have.


it's ok - i didn't know u had a disability

>I also noticed you purposefully defined "mechanized process" as if it's a negative thing.


it is a negative thing. humans aren't machines. and the products they consume should not be produced through machine-systems or they risk contaminating their essence

>The truth is why WOULDN'T you do basic research before starting to make your game?


as i explained previously, basic research is fine, but only if done looking at the whole context. mechanized processes are inherently by their very nature fundamentally incapable of doing this..

>Again making an implication that all games made these days are under the umbrella of "modern games" that are all made in the exact same way. I can't help you if you don't know how to discover new games other than looking at Gamestop shelves.


name any game u think is not produced this way and ill tell u if it really is or not just by glancing at its website and wikipedia page

>I noticed you avoided naming a game you like.


i like lots of Golden Age games. you won't be able to convince me of a mechanized process by my definition being involved in its creation because there is none, and id rather not subject my memories to your Freudian-class analysis, anyway

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>>42079512
LMFAO
Wow it's amazing watching you drown yourself in your own tiny bubble and try tossing a word salad. Sometimes I think maybe you're a parody account.

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>>42079513

im sorry your mind isn't vast enough to interact intelligently with mine. but i suppose not everyone can be as "enlightened" as me. it is both a blessing and a curse...

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>>42079515
>>r/iamverysmart

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>>42079516

im not super smart, but i am smarter than approximately 92% of the population, which means if there are 20 people in a room, there is a good chance i am the smartest one there. anyway, it's not my intelligence that makes me so awesome - it's the unique combination of intelligence and moral integrity that makes me a force 2 b reckoned with

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>>42079517
Reported for insulting approximately 80-85% of the population

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>>42079518

is that some kind of subtle insult, good sir? good sir - surely you are mistaken and want to submit a correction to your report?

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>>42079517
Apparently not smart enough to know where the shift key is.

Or how to spell 'to' and 'be'.
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Pony_PuristCountry code: blank.gif, country type: ponyflag, valid: 1 42079526

>>42079525

i intentionally change the style of my grammar in order to filter out those not intelligent enough to recognize my characteristic style as something of its own. and you have failed my filter, good toy.

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NiBBa you tryna act like you hard, but you never even heard of the Tragedy that Reach the Man.

Macaroni !RevGiOKgRoCountry code: ponies-twilight.png, country type: ponyflag, valid: 1  42079534

>>42079461
I don't think the analogy really applies with these arguments so far.
I feel this has been more along the lines of going to the theater, seeing a comedy, and getting pissed that nobody is laughing at the jokes the director intended to make.

Chewy!!Twilight SparkleCountry code: ponies-twilight.png, country type: ponyflag, valid: 1  42079535

>>42079525
Why did you never respond to Thauma talking about how rocket jumping is an exploit in Quake? Haven't you praised Quake yourself? What makes that different from wallbouncing in Gears?
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>>42079535
Rocket jumping was an exploit in Quake. The main thing that sets Quake apart is that Quake was primarily a LAN game. When Quake was at it's prime the internet was new and 14.4 modems were the norm. That means that there wasn't really an "online matchmaking" thing going. When you played Quake mulitplayer, you were generally playing with friends. People you knew.

That means that most games of Quake used "house rules". Meaning that while rocket jumping WAS an exploit, like I said it was, it was one of those things you could easily manage because if there was someone doing it and people didn't want it to happen they could simply not allow that person to play with them.

You don't get that kind of choice in modern games. There was no meta in games like Quake because while it was multiplayer, it was generally local multiplayer. 9 times out of 10 you knew who you were playing with and had a choice in what you were willing to put up with.

That choice no longer exists.

I also said I'm not a fan of rocket jumping as a mechanic, which is why I never play Soldier in TF2.

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>>42079534
>I feel this has been more along the lines of going to the theater, seeing a comedy, and getting pissed that nobody is laughing at the jokes the director intended to make.

That doesn't hold up at all. This is 100% about other people ruining the experience for others because they personally find it fun to do so. I think my analogy is quite apt in this situation.

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>>42079526
Pretending to be stupid doesn't make you look smarter.

Hubert!Zn.OKn9A2oCountry code: blank.gif, country type: ponyflag, valid: 1 42079549

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No self-respecting adult plays Fortnite, but they do post on image boards dedicated to children's shows with talking horses.
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>>42079549
HELLZ YEAH!

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>>42079549
Fortnite is the culmination of everything wrong with gaming in the modern age.

An empty, souless experience designed for people who have such short attention spans that being invested in the game for more than one life is just too difficult.

I tried it once just to see if there was more to it and there isn't.

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>>42079554
Even the high school aged kids in the classes I teach love it.

It's all my 10 year old nephew plays, and every now and then I'll hear him complain and call other players cunts on the mic.

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>>42079556
Other players are cunts..

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>>42079554
oh my god she's hit peak boomer

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>>42079556
>>42079562
The primary issue I have with it is that it's not a very smart game. What I mean by that is that if you're actually playing it in a way that maximizes your survivability, it's actually hardly even a game.

In a situation where you are outnumbered, the best thing you can do is not draw attention to yourself.

That basically means, stay out of sight, don't make any noise and don't do anything that would draw attention to your position: In simple terms, don't actually play the game.

Macaroni !RevGiOKgRoCountry code: ponies-twilight.png, country type: ponyflag, valid: 1  42079566

>>42079546
Yet the fact of the matter is that wall bouncing / rocket jumping / wave dashing / whatever is done so often as to be part of their respective games now, and that is ok for a fundamental reason: the players have fun, thus fulfilling the entire point of the games, intentional mechanics or otherwise.
The "art form" matters only to this purpose, and while you are free to seek more constrained venues and even prefer it strongly, having a conitption fit about "proper play" and the ruination of video games comes off as rather one-sided and pedantic.

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>>42079566
>the players who do it have fun

You missed a very important piece of information here.

This is primarily the problem. This self centered thinking is so ingraned in people at this point that they don't even realize it. "As long as I'm having fun, everyone else should be, right?"

No. That isn't how things work. When people use exploits in a game, even if it's an exploit anyone can technically do, if it gets to the point where you simply can't really even play the game without also doing the exploit, then you are more or less forcing other people to play the way YOU want to play, they get no choice and you don't care as long as YOU are having fun.

What if I don't want to wall bounce, rocket jump, or wavedash? What if I just like the game the way it is and want to play it the way it's meant to be played? Does that mean I'm not allowed to play anymore?
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Starshine!Laura/wmXMCountry code: ponychan.png, country type: customflag, valid: 42079571

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>other players are better at a game than you because they take full advantage of the game's mechanics while you insist on playing "ethically"
>call it cheap and exploitative when they don't go easy on you, even though they get their asses handed to them regularly by others who are better than them
>somehow they're the ones being buzzkills
>but you'll still complain when games have no depth, even though the reason for that is to make sure "ethically" is the only way to play
This ain't it, chief.

LisbonCountry code: blank.gif, country type: ponyflag, valid: 1 42079572

>trying to avoid fights in a last man standing gamemode is cheap

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>>42079571
>other players are better at a game than you because they take full advantage of the game's mechanics while you insist on playing "ethically"

Taking advantage of the game's mechanics and doing something that actually breaks the game are two completely different things. Taking advantage of the game's mechanics is understanding map layout, timing and mechanical precision.

Stuff like wave dashing and wall bouncing are none of those things. They are nothing more than figuring out how to break the animation cycles to cause it to glitch out and do something unintended that gives you an advantage.

Also there are plenty of games with depth that don't require you to break the game in order to have fun playing it.
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>>42079572
It's not really. I'm not doing anything that abuses the game in any fashion, I'm not taking advantage of an exploit. I'm just playing the game in the most logical fashion.

I don't know what the enemy has, the goal is to survive as long as possible. Having to fight 99 other people is much more dangerous than having to fight 5 near the end of the game, resources are random and scarce, so what logical sense does it make to risk taking damage and dying by drawing attention to yourself early instead of just waiting it out until there are much less people to deal with?

You are not rewarded for kills. It is not deathmatch. Whether you have 50 kills or 2 doesn't matter since the goal is simply to be the last person alive.

Starshine!Laura/wmXMCountry code: ponychan.png, country type: customflag, valid: 42079576

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>>42079574
>timing and mechanical precision
Yeah...that's what wavedashing and rocketjumping are. Can't comment on wall bouncing but I'm guessing it's a similar story.

Wavedashing does not "break" Smash Bros, that's not what a "broken" mechanic is. It does not guarantee victory against someone who doesn't use it, it's nothing more than an advanced technique to make positioning and movement more efficient. Even if you're up against a Luigi who's sliding all the fuck over the place, you learn to read his movements and figure out how to counter him. That's called strategy. You make it sound like these exploits are some godmoding tier stuff that totally breaks the game when in reality they're basically the equivalent of spamming the roll button or side hops to go faster in a 3D Zelda game.

Mythix(pchans supervillain)!wG1CV58ydQCountry code: blank.gif, country type: ponyflag, valid: 1 42079577

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Ghost Recon Wildlands, Just Cause 4, The Crew 2, Forza Horizon 4 are all great modern games. Anyone who disagrees can suck my fuck.

JK I dont care if you don't like the games I like. I just wanted to say suck my fuck.

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>>42079576
>Wavedashing does not "break" Smash Bros

If the designers intended characters to have that level of momentum in the game they would have given them an ability to do so. The entire game is balanced around the pacing of the characters base movement speeds. When you do something that pushes a character to move faster than it was designed to, any balance that was put into the game is completely destroyed because the game was not playtested to take that into account. This means it can make certain characters much stronger than they were ever intended to be, which completely breaks down the game itself.

Games are balanced based on the way the developers intend them to be played. If you start breaking that, you throw balance out the window.
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Chewy!!Twilight SparkleCountry code: ponies-twilight.png, country type: ponyflag, valid: 1  42079581

>>42079567
>What if I don't want to wall bounce, rocket jump, or wavedash? What if I just like the game the way it is and want to play it the way it's meant to be played? Does that mean I'm not allowed to play anymore?
What if the majority of people do? What if you are outnumbered by the people who want to "abuse" what you perceive to be an "exploit"? Because if you play Gears Of War, you literally are. Even esports teams for Gears Of War are all about wallbouncing.
Why do you put so much stock in your arbitrary "ethics" that you yourself seem to be inventing? Is there some god of gaming who descended and said "YOU MUST PLAY AS THE DEVELOPER INTENDED TO BE FAIR."
How come so many of your arguments in a vast amount of subjects boil down to "The authorities/creators/supposed experts etc. are always right!"
>>42079576
>Can't comment on wall bouncing but I'm guessing it's a similar story.
It literally is that, yeah. Timing and mechanical precision describe it perfectly.

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>>42079581
In the original Left4Dead there was a trick you could do that required timing and mechanical precision, but if you pulled it off it would unload the entire magazine of your gun in one shot, effectively letting you drop Tanks, which were meant to be boss enemies, in essentially one shot.

Is this an exploit or is it just a 'feature'?

Chewy!!Twilight SparkleCountry code: ponies-twilight.png, country type: ponyflag, valid: 1  42079583

>>42079582
That's an exploit.
How the hell does that compare to wallbouncing, which actually takes skill, developed by hours and hours of practice that will inevitably involve failure before mastering it or even getting halfway GOOD at it?

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>>42079583
Actually pulling off this particular trick was quite difficult and doing it in the middle of combat took a lot of practice, because if the timing was not perfect it wouldn't work.

It actually wasn't common practice just because of how difficult it actually was to do, and if you missed your shot you blew your entire clip immediately.

Tell me how it is different.
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AnonymousCountry code: blank.gif, country type: ponyflag, valid: 1 42079585

>>42079313
>needing ... mandatory updates
For online multiplayer or for single player? Mandating updates for single player disrespects your freedoms.

Chewy!!Twilight SparkleCountry code: ponies-twilight.png, country type: ponyflag, valid: 1  42079587

>>42079584
>Tell me how it is different.
There is a huge difference between doing some button combo for an automatic instakill, and what wallbouncing is. Like night and day. I don't know how you can't comprehend that.
Wallbouncing doesn't affect how much damage your weapon does or some shit like that. It's simply improving how skillfully you can move around the map and dodge enemy shots. It's about genuine tactics, positioning, accuracy etc.
Also didn't you originally say that "respect for the game" is different in regards to SP vs. online games? Why are you even bringing up an example of something done against an AI opponent?

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>>42079587
Left4Dead had online vs. modes and the glitch worked in online play as well.

Part of the problem I have with wallbouncing is that it forces a meta. The limiting factor in shotguns is that they are high power at close range. The trade-off is the skill involved in shotgun usage is closing the gap. When you can basically just magnetize yourself to walls in order to fling yourself at an enemy faster than the game ever intended you to be able to, you effectively negate the downside to using a shotgun entirely, rendering it more powerful than it should be, because range is no longer a factor.

Likewise, in the Left 4 Dead glitch, the assault rifle/machine gun has the trade-off of better range for lower per-shot damage. But since you can effectively turn the machine gun into a shotgun with the glitch, it removes that limitation, making the shotgun obsolete.

It is literally the same thing: Negating the downsides of a particular weapon to the point where no other weapon in the game is viable.
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Chewy!!Twilight SparkleCountry code: ponies-twilight.png, country type: ponyflag, valid: 1  42079589

>>42079588
>It is literally the same thing
What you are talking about is an exploit used against an NPC, what I am talking about is a skill developed playing against actual people. PvE co-op is very different than competitive PvP gameplay.

>Negating the downsides of a particular weapon to the point where no other weapon in the game is viable.

If you're enough of a douche, you can easily get a full team of people spraying from cover with lancers to shut down any individual trying to wallbounce, but this is considered extremely cheap and poor sportmanship. But it is very much possible.

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>>42079589
>What you are talking about is an exploit used against an NPC, what I am talking about is a skill developed playing against actual people

I just said that there is online PvP in Left4Dead and the glitch worked online until it was patched out.

>>42079589
>If you're enough of a douche, you can easily get a full team of people spraying from cover with lancers to shut down any individual trying to wallbounce, but this is considered extremely cheap and poor sportmanship. But it is very much possible.

>If you are cheap and a douchebag by actually using the cover system in the way it was meant to be used, you can counter our abuse of it.


This is the state of the world we live in. When did we get to the point in which playing fair and by the rules was considered poor sportsmanship?
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ChewyCountry code: ponychan.png, country type: customflag, valid: 42079594

>>42079592
Why are you literally only capable of viewing something's value in terms of how it was or was not intended to be used originally?

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Cant wait to get home from work to put my 2 cents in on this.

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>>42079594
Because that is how the rules work. If you're not following the rules you're not playing fair. End of story.

You play the game within the rules of the game defined by the game. If you go out of those boundaries, you are breaking the rules and therefore breaking the game.

LisbonCountry code: blank.gif, country type: ponyflag, valid: 1 42079597

this conversation is still going hoo boy

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>>42079597
There isn't much else going on.

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>>42079597
Now imagine if she was talking about your character and not your videogames, how would you guys respond?

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>>42079599
The fuck are you talking about?

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>>42079596
Why are rules so important? What about freedom for players to explore and be creative the way they see fit?
When you play an open-world game, do you follow strictly the guidelines the games give you? What do you make of a game like Minecraft where there are no rules--is that even a game to you?

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>>42079601
There are rules in Minecraft.

You cannot pass through solid blocks. You will take damage from enemies. You cannot swim in lava. Etc.

These are rules. If you break them, you are cheating.

You and I have two different ideas of what 'rules' mean. For me, the rules are the limitations of the game itself and how they are intended to be used. If you found a glitch that allowed you to make Obsidian out of water and dirt, that would be breaking the rules, because you make Obsidian with water and lava.

Just because the mechanics for crafting Obsidian exists, and Obsidian exists in Minecraft does not mean finding a way to make it the game didn't intend you to isn't cheating.

Rules aren't about 'how you're supposed to play'. They are about how the game world is supposed to function, and when you start fucking with those rules you break the game world entirely.

If you find a way to duplicate items in a game that doesn't have any offical way of duplicating items, you aren't 'playing better', you are abusing an exploit.

And when it comes to wallbouncing (and wavedashing for that matter), what you are doing is making the character move in ways it was never intended to move, which is absolutely no different than anything else that breaks the world in a way that was not intended.
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Macaroni !RevGiOKgRoCountry code: ponies-twilight.png, country type: ponyflag, valid: 1  42079603

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Everything about a game's value is subjective and relative for all involved is ultimately subordinate to but one quality: does it permit fun to be had?
"Orderliness" or "Chaos" relative to the developer's or even the player's expectations may both be permitted at different times and places as dictated by 'fun', by the value to be extracted from engaging in play with it, and to place anything about the game above the 'fun' itself, is not to play any game at all, but to force an idea or conception of the game upon others.
Which is not very fun, for them at least.

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>>42079603
This gets complicated when it comes to online games because the question changes from 'Is it fun' to 'is it fun for everyone'?

If the only people having fun are the people doing the specific thing that was never intended to be done, that is not a good thing, because it means that now everyone is forced to do that thing in order to have fun, and the people that don't want to do that thing can no longer enjoy a game they invested in.

The argument may be flipped to "what about the people that want to do that thing?" well, the fact of the matter is that thing is technically not supposed to happen. It was not part of the advertised product and it was not something people expected when they started the game.

So when it comes down to who gets priority as far as that is concerned, it should always fall towards what the product originally intended, because that is what people coming into the game expect. If they want to turn that bug into a feature and part of the core game, that's fine, but they have to officially endorse and support it and make new players aware of it as a mechanic.

This is why rocket jumping in TF2 works. It's introduced as a functional mechanic that was meant to be in the game from the start. Players are made aware that it exists and the basics of how it works. There is a level of skill in rocket jumping and high skill players will get way more out of it than low skill players, but the fact is that everyone was made aware of it by the game proper and it is 'working as intended.'
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Chewy!!Twilight SparkleCountry code: ponies-twilight.png, country type: ponyflag, valid: 1  42079606

>>42079602
>There are rules in Minecraft.
>You cannot pass through solid blocks. You will take damage from enemies. You cannot swim in lava. Etc.
>These are rules. If you break them, you are cheating.
LMAO, do you seriously not know about "Creative Mode", which is literally an official mode that the developers put in the game intentionally, which allows you to be invincible to all enemies, swim in lava, literally fly and go super fast, and have an infinite amount of every item, even the rarest ones, on demand at all times?
What do you make of that? Are there supposed to be rules in that too?
What about all the mods for Skyrim, Fallout, etc. that do things the developers didn't originally intend, such as adding extra music, changing enemy AI, changing core mechanics, the list literally does on and on. Is that all rule-breaking/cheating if they are used?
Aren't you always going on about how great PC mods are?
I'll ask again: Why are rules so important? Why do you allow them to define/restrict your personal experience?

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>>42079604
>If they want to turn that bug into a feature and part of the core game, that's fine, but they have to officially endorse and support it and make new players aware of it as a mechanic.
I literally already explained how the Gears Of War developers did EXACTLY that in the sequels and you said that didn't matter, though?

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>>42079606
Creative mode isn't a game. It's a sandbox. There is zero challenge or achievement to be had in that mode. Creative mode is for when you want to just build shit just to build shit, you aren't playing Minecraft in creative mode. It's not even a game at that point.

I can't believe you would actually bring up creative mode in this argument.

As for Skyrim/Fallout, those are single player experiences and I already said you can fuck around in those however you want because you're not actually fucking over other people when you do that.

>I'll ask again: Why are rules so important? Why do you allow them to define/restrict your personal experience?


Because when I am playing online WITH OTHER PEOPLE it is not my personal experience. It is a COLLECTIVE experience that EVERYONE is having TOGETHER and I am not a big enough of a douchebag to put my personal enjoyment above those of everyone else that is also trying to play.

>>42079607
You said the developers didn't want it to be a thing and even tried to nerf the ability to do it but the playerbase had a tantrum and they were forced to revert it. Nothing about that says they endorsed it or wanted it as an intended feature, it just says to me that immature players basically bullied them into letting them do it, and I even asked you if it is now a legitimate part of the game and you said no.

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>>42079615
>It's not even a game at that point.
W-what?

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>>42079621
Would you consider Photoshop a game? Because in Minecraft creative that is basically what you get. Your character is just a brush at that point. You can't die, you have unlimited anything you want, there is no game there, it's a painting tool with 3D pixels. That's about it.

Minecraft creative does not classify as a game.

Macaroni !RevGiOKgRoCountry code: ponies-twilight.png, country type: ponyflag, valid: 1  42079631

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>>42079627
It becomes a game the moment I go to test the limits of either the game or my own ingenuity, be it alone or in the company of others.

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>>42079615
>Creative mode isn't a game
alright I'm fuckin' done

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>>42079631
If Minecraft creative is testing your limits I think you need to raise the bar on what your limits are capable of.

That being said: "Key components of games are goals, rules, challenge, and interaction."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Game
The only mark that creative mode ticks here is interaction, and that in and of itself does not classify it as a game any more than drawing a picture can be considered a game.

>>42079636
Explain to me how it is? There is literally NO game mechanics at play in creative mode. You have unlimited resources, there is no goal, and you cannot lose or be defeated in any capacity. That is not a game, that is a level editor.

I get the feeling you people are trolling me at this point.
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>>42079639
>If Minecraft creative is testing your limits I think you need to raise the bar on what your limits are capable of.
Really tempted to sling an insult here because what you're saying now is just fucked. My brother has poured hundreds of hours into Minecraft building his entire own cities, castles, landscapes etc.. If that isn't an example of genuine creativity, I don't know what the fuck is. Do you even understand how much fucking effort goes into that? A hell of a lot more than doing a stealth-only Fallout run or getting to diamond in Overwatch using only a pistol or whatever the fuck "ReSpEcTiNg ThE gAmE" shit makes you tick.

>goals

My brother had the goal to build a city.
>rules
He can only do what the game allows him to do (ex. he can't telepathically generate it)
>challenge
Challenge comes in the form of patience, attention to detail, and architectural design. Not any dumbass can build something really cool in Minecraft.
>and interaction
*presses literally any button in the game*
Congratulations, you are interacting with it. Like wtf? What is your brain even doing here?

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>>42079582
Wave dashing and rocket jumping are consequences of the games physics and things that were meant to be in the game in the first place.

You are meant to slide when you hit the ground on an angle in smash, and you are meant to get knock back when a rocket hits you. Just because the player induces that reaction of the games physics, and uses it to an advantage or in a way that wasn't specifically intended, doesn't make it a glitch. Its basically the same as an airfoil generating lift irl, its just a consequence of the physics of the world that are naturally there, and in the case of a game, suppose to be there.

Where as, something like a button combo or a glitch of the wall, isnt the same, because they are not produced by using the natural programed physics in the bounds of what the programmers intended.

>>42079581
I feel like you are kind of arguing against your own OP. You know wave dashing would have been patched if melee were just coming out now right? Its why im not getting to comfortable with anything in ultimate, i know they can change it all on a whim.

>>42079639
>If Minecraft creative is testing your limits I think you need to raise the bar on what your limits are capable of.
I would say the people who make working micro processors in minecraft creative and playing minecraft in minecraft on an emulated system... yeah, they are testing limits.
[Minecraft Computer Engineering] - Quad-Core Redstone Computer v4.0 [200 sub special!]

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>>42079642
You DO understand the difference between a game and a fucking art project, right?

The two are not the same thing. Just because he used the same interface to build his city as the one you use in the actual game, that doesn't mean he was playing a game when he built that. He was creating an art project. That is not a game. That's not how games work. I cannot believe I have to explain this to you. Just because you DO something doesn't make it a game. For fuck's sake.

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>>42079646
>Just because you DO something doesn't make it a game.
Well...
game (gām)►

n.
An activity providing entertainment or amusement; a pastime


Would you call solitaire a game?

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>>42079645
>I feel like you are kind of arguing against your own OP. You know wave dashing would have been patched if melee were just coming out now right? Its why im not getting to comfortable with anything in ultimate, i know they can change it all on a whim.
I mean yeah that may be true but I don't feel like that defeats my point? I never got into wavedashing, when I played Melee it was with my friends (or brother) on the couch and we just fucked around button-mashing for the most part.

>>42079646
>You DO understand the difference between a game and a fucking art project, right?
Yes?
Your argument here can be deduced to:
>JUST BECAUSE HE BUILT SOMETHING IN THE FUCKING GAME DOESN'T MEAN HE WAS PLAYING THE GAME
Do I have to tell you how retarded that is?

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>>42079631
don't test the limits too much or you might end up unethical

☲ Prince Ember Storm!MSNowBALLkCountry code: ponies-twilight.png, country type: ponyflag, valid: 1  42079654

This whole thread is retarded. Play the games you want. Don't be a douche.

Again.

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>>42079650
>Would you call solitaire a game?

Yes. Because you can fail.

>>42079651
>JUST BECAUSE HE BUILT SOMETHING IN THE FUCKING GAME DOESN'T MEAN HE WAS PLAYING THE GAME

Using the software to produce a work of art does not constitute "playing the game" because there literally is no game to play.

Holy shit.
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Macaroni !RevGiOKgRoCountry code: ponies-twilight.png, country type: ponyflag, valid: 1  42079656

>>42079655
But there is a game there, and it even has a fail condition.
>Can't build this city.

Chewy!!Twilight SparkleCountry code: ponies-twilight.png, country type: ponyflag, valid: 1  42079660

>>42079655
>using the software [which is the game]... does not constitute "playing the game"
are you fucking high
also you CAN fail at Minecraft in a multitude of ways
>come up with plan for symmetrical structure
>accidentally make it so big that only one half reaches the edge of the entire play space (emphasis on "play")
>now it is impossible to complete what you started, thus you have F A I L E D
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>>42079656
What is stopping you?

Nothing. Nothing is stopping you. There is no game.

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>>42079656
>>42079660
Your own incompetence does not constitute a valid failure condition!!

Macaroni !RevGiOKgRoCountry code: ponies-twilight.png, country type: ponyflag, valid: 1  42079664

>>42079661
My own limits or those of the game world itself?

>>42079662
The fuck are you on, incompetence generally causes most loses in a game.

Chewy!!Twilight SparkleCountry code: ponies-twilight.png, country type: ponyflag, valid: 1  42079665

>>42079662
If I shoot at someone in Overwatch and miss, and then they turn around and kill me, is that a failure on my part or no?

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>>42079664
>>42079665
If you're walking down the street and you trip and fall, were you just playing a game of "walk down the street" and lost?!

This is the fucking argument you are making right now. Are you fucking serious?

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>>42079666
>answering my question with an irrelevant question
epic

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>>42079655
>Yes. Because you can fail.
But you can fail making a computer processor in creative, or you can fail by flooding your city in creative by accident.

I mean, solitaire is a game that is decided before you even make your first move, but its still a game, the only way you can fail is if you dont organize the cards in the right way.
>>42079662
>Your own incompetence does not constitute a valid failure condition!!
Again, is solitaire a game?
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Macaroni !RevGiOKgRoCountry code: ponies-twilight.png, country type: ponyflag, valid: 1  42079669

>>42079666
Walking down the street could be a game if out of boredom I wanted to see if I could do it, or how well I could do it, though being both able-bodied and not interested in crippling myself for the challenge, I don't really do that as a game.

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>>42079668
>But you can fail making a computer processor in creative, or you can fail by flooding your city in creative by accident.
>
>I mean, solitaire is a game that is decided before you even make your first move, but its still a game, the only way you can fail is if you dont organize the cards in the right way.

The way you fail at solitaire is by making bad plays and bad moves. There is a distinct goal and there are obstacles and rules, such as the cards not being revealed to you at the start, and only being able to match cards in a specific order.

Playing Minecraft in Creative mode is like playing Solitaire only you can see all the cards and you can have any card you want and any time and put them together any way you want. THAT'S NOT PLAYING SOLITAIRE THAT IS SIMPLY SORTING A DECK OF CARDS.

I cannot believe people are this fucking dense.
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Macaroni !RevGiOKgRoCountry code: ponies-twilight.png, country type: ponyflag, valid: 1  42079676

>>42079672
I think a better analogy would be making card pyramids instead of just playing solitaire.
Which can be fun, and can be failed.

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>>42079676
BUILDING A CARD CASTLE IS NOT A GAME.

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>>42079672
>THAT'S NOT PLAYING SOLITAIRE THAT IS SIMPLY SORTING A DECK OF CARDS.
Thats all solitaire is though... a less efficient way of sorting a deck of cards.

What is the difference between being presented with a deck of cards, unsorted and upside down with a goal in mind, and being presented with blocks with a goal in mind?

Are puzzles games?

Macaroni !RevGiOKgRoCountry code: ponies-twilight.png, country type: ponyflag, valid: 1  42079679

>>42079677
It even better fits some of your definitions, it has an end goal, it has a failure condition, it takes skill and patience, there are definite rules in the form of simple physics, etc.
I would have to define it as a game, and you would too.
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>>42079678
Oh my fucking god.

A game has RULES you have to FOLLOW and obstacles you have to overcome that are SPECIFICALLY DESIGNED to hinder your ability to achieve the goal of the game.

The cards being face down and the limits on how you can stack the cards are what makes it a game. The obstacles and the rules. SORTING A DECK OF CARDS HAS NO OBSTACLES AND NO RULES.

Jesus Christ are you enjoying yourself?!

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>>42079679
No. I wouldn't. Because there is no obstacle specifically designed to prevent you from completing the project. Cards can be stacked, but they are not designed to be stacked. There is no defined rules to card castle building. There is nothing specifically designed to make it hard to complete. The mere existence of gravity does not constitute a game mechanic.

God you are intentionally trying to piss me off at this point.

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>>42079680
There are obstacles to overcome if you are building a micro processor in minecraft, you need to try things and fail, you need to overcome your own limitations and work around the limitations of the pieces you have to work with to achieve your goal.


I mean i already posted the actual definition of "game" and its
An activity providing entertainment or amusement; a pastime

So... honestly all your points are moot and just your personal interpretation of what constitutes a "game".

>Jesus Christ are you enjoying yourself?!

Lil bit. Though, it wasnt my intention from the get go to make you upset.

maybe its just... mindgames?

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here's an idea

just play the game the way it suits you and allows you to enjoy it

Chewy!!Twilight SparkleCountry code: ponies-twilight.png, country type: ponyflag, valid: 1  42079687

>>42079684
>all your points are moot and just your personal interpretation of what constitutes a "game".
this can basically be a response to Toybox's last 20-something posts

Macaroni !RevGiOKgRoCountry code: ponies-twilight.png, country type: ponyflag, valid: 1  42079688

>>42079682
The components of a game need not have been designed for the game being played, merely that they can fulfill the roles they are placed into, whatever they may be.
Just as well, the absence of predefined moves doesn't stop moves from being made, nor does the absence of designed obstacles doesn't preclude obstacles arising on their own from physics or circumstances within the game.
For that matter, gravity would seem to be a rather important mechanic, as it is quite impossible to stack objects in the absence of gravity, and gravity would be the force that helps cause alot of losses anyways.

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>>42079686
Too easy.

Macaroni !RevGiOKgRoCountry code: ponies-twilight.png, country type: ponyflag, valid: 1  42079690

This argument could well be interpreted as a game.

Chewy!!Twilight SparkleCountry code: ponies-twilight.png, country type: ponyflag, valid: 1  42079693

>>42079690
You know there's literally the expression "The game of life?" I would have to say taking things that far is stretching it beyond the limits of what needs to be defined here, but it still makes more sense than Toy's arbitrary definitions.

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>>42079690
Quit playing games with my heart!!

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Fine. I fucking give up. Everything is a game. You can make a game out if anything. Look I'm playing a game called breathing.

Yay. Now that we've established that everything in the fucking world is a game, games themselves are valueless because they are no different than what we already do every day.

So my hobby is fucking worthless. You happy now? That what you were going for?

Destroying one of the last two things I can actually enjoy? Congratulations!

Now you can just get to outlawing sex and then I might have a valid reason to just jump off a cliff. Get crackin'.

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>>42079695
Here is a question, and im really not trying to be a bastard...

What do you consider 2nd life to be?
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>>42079696
It's a virtual sandbox.

The fuck else would it be?

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>>42079695
DO A FLIP!

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>>42079698
... a game?

dont hurt me

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>>42079703
Games have been built in second life but second life itself is not a game.

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>>42079695
>defining the personal value you find in something by using scarcity, authority or the dictionary

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>>42079705
Do you find joy in devaluing everything anyone ever cares about?

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>>42079704
So just out of curiosity, if you allow mobs in minecraft creative, or allow fall damage, does it then become a game?

Because that is the only real difference between the 2 modes. Other than having to mine.

If someone makes a pixel art in survival mode are they playing a game or are they playing using a really annoying version of photoshop?

edit2
Because it seems to me, by your definition, nothing about minecraft could be called a game.
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☲ Prince Ember Storm!MSNowBALLkCountry code: ponies-twilight.png, country type: ponyflag, valid: 1  42079709

>>42079708
Mobs in creative aren't aggressive.

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>>42079709
Thats not the point.

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>>42079708
Minecraft has two parts. Mine and Craft.

Mine is the challenge. Getting places without dying finding the things you need and bringing those things back without losing everything.

Craft is the reward. Using the things you earned to do stuff you like to do.

When you remove the Mining from Minecraft you just have Craft, which is ALL REWARD AND NO CHALLENGE.

If there is no challenge there is no game.

Macaroni !RevGiOKgRoCountry code: ponies-twilight.png, country type: ponyflag, valid: 1  42079713

>>42079707
I have come to find any mind that requires external authorities and factors to tell it what it finds personal value in, rather than finding that value for itself as it plays around in the world, to actually be somewhat batshit.
...
But that's besides the point being made here.

LisbonCountry code: blank.gif, country type: ponyflag, valid: 1 42079715

twelve years ago i was a happy little kid with bright hopes for the future and no idea what a dreary sucky world it would be. i was weird as hell and didn't have any friends but i still got a lot of social contact and at least had the option to get friends if i ever managed to get my head out of my ass. anyway it's been twelve years and a lot of shit's gone down since then and all i gotta say is realizing i'm reading this asinine fucking argument toy's making really has me taking a good look at my own life choices
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>>42079715
Well I hope you get to be fucking happy because apparently I'm not allowed to be.
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Macaroni !RevGiOKgRoCountry code: ponies-twilight.png, country type: ponyflag, valid: 1  42079719

>>42079718
Nobody is stopping you from playing video games.

Chewy!!Twilight SparkleCountry code: ponies-twilight.png, country type: ponyflag, valid: 1  42079720

>>42079695
>So my hobby is fucking worthless.
...why does that make it worthless? If gaming has value to you, it doesn't matter what other people's definitions of games are to you because you're still enjoying it.
We're all just debating things here, this isn't about devaluing it, I think calling Minecraft a game technically ascribes more value to it.
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>>42079712
I see what you are saying, but just having to gather stuff before you make your art project dosnt really make it a game, if thats the case, then going to AC Moore to get paint then painting is a game, but if you already have the paint, its just an art project.

>>42079713
>>42079715
Chill out, why ya gotta make it personal?
i know she did too, doesn't make it right
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>>42079719
No, they're just telling me that it's all fucking pointless and that since anything can be a game, games are basically the same as breathing and having an interest in them is just as retarded as calling breathing hobby.
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>>42079721
right, my bad, that was a little rude. i just mean... what the fuck am i doing reading this "what is a game" debate while i'm rotting in my bedroom

Macaroni !RevGiOKgRoCountry code: ponies-twilight.png, country type: ponyflag, valid: 1  42079724

>>42079722
See: >>42079705

If you're getting fun out of an activity, yay.
If you're only getting fun from something outside of both yourself and the activity, that seems baffling.

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>>42079720
If someone fucking farted and claimed that made them a musician and you were actually a musician that put time and effort into actually making music, wouldn't you be a little fucking upset that they would compare that to what you did as if it were on the same level?

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>>42079722
Breathing is a game if you are trying to see who can hold their breath longest.

I dont think anyone is calling you retarded, i think there is just more leeway in what others are willing to call a game, and both ideas of what a game is fit the actual definition so it really all just personal interpretation.

>>42079723
>what the fuck am i doing reading this "what is a game" debate while i'm rotting in my bedroom
Well see, thats a legit question hahaha. I could be doing so much more with my life ... haha.

But I guess i just treat it as a game...

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Macaroni !RevGiOKgRoCountry code: ponies-twilight.png, country type: ponyflag, valid: 1  42079728

>>42079725
Slow it down, deepen the pitch, add reverb and I'll check it out tbh.

Chewy!!Twilight SparkleCountry code: ponies-twilight.png, country type: ponyflag, valid: 1  42079729

>>42079725
I mean I guess but we're not talking about the level of quality games are on, we're simply talking about whether or not they are in fact games.
Yes people itt are taking things kinda far but like...you're taking some of this waaay too seriously.
Just because Minecraft and Solitaire are games doesn't mean you can't enjoy the games you enjoy. The value you ascribe to a video game should come from your personal enjoyment of it, not what category anyone else puts it into.

And for the record, whatever this
>>42079727 is, it's not as good as the music I make.
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>>42079729
>you're taking some of this waaay too seriously.

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>>42079729
>you're taking some of this waaay too seriously.


You think so?

Macaroni !RevGiOKgRoCountry code: ponies-twilight.png, country type: ponyflag, valid: 1  42079732

>>42079730
>>42079731

This doesn't really back up any particular arguments, as your own time and energy invested in video games was never in question.

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>>42079731
I mean... thats only 2:45 hours a day..

Casual...

dont hurt me

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>>42079732
It kind of was, because people are telling me that my time invested made me no more qualified to know what a game was than someone who only plays the most casual of games about 4 hours a week.

I think I'm a LITTLE more qualified to know what a game is.

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>>42079734
That's only my steam games.

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>>42079735
>because people are telling me that my time invested made me no more qualified to know what a game was
>I think I'm a LITTLE more qualified to know what a game is.

Well i think this is the nexus of the argument. You really arnt more qualified than anyone else to decide what a game is. No more than an Olympic curling champion is more qualified to tell you what a game is, if they put in more hours.

☲ Prince Ember Storm!MSNowBALLkCountry code: ponies-twilight.png, country type: ponyflag, valid: 1  42079738

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>>42079737
Hey. HEY.

Curling is life.

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>>42079737
Curling is not a game. It's a sport.



....for some reason.

Macaroni !RevGiOKgRoCountry code: ponies-twilight.png, country type: ponyflag, valid: 1  42079740

>>42079735
Your time and energy doesn't give you power over how words and categories can best be used or understood; that is to be discovered or invented as necessary.

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>>42079738
My friend is in a league, i really want to go to the learn to curl night, but he has to come to a Hi-power rifle shoot to make it even haha.

Fucking Shuster... cant even hit the back 12 with a gripper... still salty about the 2010 Olympics haha

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if they consider a football event a game

does that make football a sport or a game?

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>>42079739
So baseball is not a game?

Macaroni !RevGiOKgRoCountry code: ponies-twilight.png, country type: ponyflag, valid: 1  42079744

>>42079742
Sports are a subcategory of games.

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>>42079743
I was mostly joking. I just wanted to take a jab at curling.

Sports are games but they are fundimentally different enough that someone who is a pro at a physical sport does not have any authority over video games.

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>>42079737
Let me try to put it in a perspective you can understand here.

Do you think it's okay for someone who has next to no experience with firearms or how they work being allowed to dictate the definitions of firearms and how they should be used?

Macaroni !RevGiOKgRoCountry code: ponies-twilight.png, country type: ponyflag, valid: 1  42079747

>>42079745
Expert video game players don't even have that authority, as words or concepts are not determined by their fiat.

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>>42079746
But firearms are objects, not concepts.

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>>42079744
thought so

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>>42079748
Video game are objects. They exist in physical code form and can be tangibly interacted with.

Answer the fucking question.

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>>42079750
>physical code form

wtf does this even mean

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>>42079751
They exist on a physical medium, like a hard disk. Stop trying to help him dodge the question.

Macaroni !RevGiOKgRoCountry code: ponies-twilight.png, country type: ponyflag, valid: 1  42079753

>>42079752
Video games are informational objects; their code may be stored and executed in physical media, but the activity of the game is entirely computational, and the concepts at play are as non-physical as the number five in-itself.

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>>42079750
>Answer the fucking question.
Easy tiger....

Here is the thing, you are trying to tell people how they should experience something based on YOUR perceived notion of what a word means.

An activity providing entertainment or amusement; a pastime

An activity providing entertainment or amusement; a pastime

An activity providing entertainment or amusement; a pastime

To bring it to your level:

There, i posted the definition 3 fucking times! how can you be so DENSE as to not be able to read words on a computer screen? Or can you just not understand them?

You must be fucking with me.

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>>42079754
game
/ɡām/
noun
1.
a form of play or sport, especially a competitive one played according to rules and decided by skill, strength, or luck.


If you are going to bring definitions into it, at least use a real definition.
This post was edited by its author on .

Macaroni !RevGiOKgRoCountry code: ponies-twilight.png, country type: ponyflag, valid: 1  42079756

>>42079755
Dictionaries that literally get published are plastic to how the words are being used, or sometimes how society wishes the words would be used.

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>>42079755
https://www.wordnik.com/words/game
https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/game
https://www.dictionary.com/browse/game


Wowee, its almost like a "game" can be defined as ... omg wait for it...

Many things!

Not just what Toybox decides.

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>>42079757
Oxford: A form of competitive activity or sport played according to rules.

Webster: a physical or mental competition conducted according to rules with the participants in direct opposition to each other

I didn't decide anything.

See a pattern? A game has rules.
This post was edited by its author on .

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>>42079759
You did decide which dictionaries to reference, and which listed definitions to use, and treated the issue as though it were a matter of law.

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>>42079762
I always use the same two sources: Oxford or Webster, because those are the only two offical dictionaries.

I'm still not sure whether I should be impressed or insulted the lengths you guys are going to in order to discredit my hobby.
This post was edited by its author on .

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>>42079759
>Oxford: A form of competitive activity or sport played according to rules.
Literally the first definition from oxford:
1. An activity that one engages in for amusement or fun.

The exact definition iv been using.

You played yourself, and if you would like to, you can go back and click the link to oxford i just posted.

>See a pattern? A game has rules.

Yeah, i see a pattern, a pattern of you trying to warp reality until your right.
In other words... you're playing games.

Listen, your personal definition of a game fits some of the definitions of what a game is, people arnt arguing you are wrong, they are arguing that what YOU want isnt all there is and there there is more than one definition to what makes up the concept of a "game".
This post was edited by its author on .

Macaroni !RevGiOKgRoCountry code: ponies-twilight.png, country type: ponyflag, valid: 1  42079767

>>42079763
'Official' does not necessarily equal 'correct' or 'right' or even 'most useful', but only contingently.
This also ignores that their goal is moreso to track language rather than define it as though it were law.

Macaroni !RevGiOKgRoCountry code: ponies-twilight.png, country type: ponyflag, valid: 1  42079768

>>42079763
Your hobby is not discredited or devalued; your definitions are merely lacking.

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>>42079766
Okay, fine. Games don't exist. I don't have a hobby. Discussion over.

You happy now?

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>>42079763
>I'm still not sure whether I should be impressed or insulted the lengths you guys are going to in order to discredit my hobby.
i dont think anyone is going out of their way to discredit your hobby

i think they're just pointing out you're taking it too seriously

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>>42079769
Nope, you don't get to just wip out the sympathy card and win.

You know no one is saying that "games dont exist" and that your hobby means nothing.

All that being said, you okay? You get argumentative like this when you are depressed.

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>>42079770
Yes.

It happens to be one of the only three things I do take seriously, I'm glad you noticed.

But now that we have established it has zero value I guess it doesn't matter.

Macaroni !RevGiOKgRoCountry code: ponies-twilight.png, country type: ponyflag, valid: 1  42079773

>>42079769
If you think phenomena can be removed from existence by external fiat, as though the moon can be argued away, you're presenting a belief too insane to truly believe.

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>>42079578
>The entire game is balanced around the pacing of the characters base movement speed
To an extent, but wavedashing has a fairly minimal impact on that speed for most characters anyway. And there's much more to it than that: attack speed, priority, hitboxes, cancelability. If wavedashing were as significant to the game's balance as you're making it out to be, characters like Luigi and Mewtwo would be top tier. But the undisputed top tier character in Melee is Fox, a character with one of the shortest wavedashes, because of his moveset and combo potential.

Using or not using wavedash probably impacts the balance of the game less than using or not using tilt attacks would, for instance. Yes, it has an impact, but the impact it has is increasing the overall pace and skill cap of the game, something which you'd think would be a net positive.

Also, developers cannot perfectly balance a fighting game. That's simply not possible, because they can't predict the consequences of every single move and mechanic and the strats that will develop around them. If they could, tiers wouldn't be a thing to begin with.

Starshine!Laura/wmXMCountry code: ponychan.png, country type: customflag, valid: 42079775

And if this were about balance, you wouldn't have brought up rocket jumping, because the differences between character models in Quake is cosmetic only. Every character can rocket jump the same, every character can bunny hop the same, the only difference is some players are better at making use of these techniques than others.

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>>42079771
A word that can mean literally anything also means literally nothing, and a word with no meaning basically has no point in existing.

You've established that the word has no meaning, so it has no reason to exist.

Macaroni !RevGiOKgRoCountry code: ponies-twilight.png, country type: ponyflag, valid: 1  42079778

>>42079776
The word has meaning; just not quite your meaning.

Macaroni !RevGiOKgRoCountry code: ponies-twilight.png, country type: ponyflag, valid: 1  42079779

Reminder that words point to phenomena, but are not themselves the phenomena they point to.

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>>42079772
it IS something you take serious and it IS your hobby

and that's 100% okay and i am actually jealous you have a hobby

but not everyone enjoys video gaming the same way

for example, lets take guns for example, okay?

there are people who take joy in mag dumps into nothing because they can

but really, i think it's more important to target practice to get good

people enjoy things in different ways

one isnt always wrong

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>>42079778
"A thing a person can enjoy" is basically a non-defiinition since a person can literally enjoy anything in existence.

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>>42079776
It has many definitions, but its not meaningless, your making up my argument for me, and thats not fair.

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>>42079780
>people enjoy things in different ways
>one isnt always wrong

THIS ENTIRE THREAD IS ABOUT HOW MY WAY OF ENJOYING IT IS WRONG.

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>>42079783
are you kidding??

You are the only one saying that what people consider a game is wrong.

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Macaroni !RevGiOKgRoCountry code: ponies-twilight.png, country type: ponyflag, valid: 1  42079787

>>42079781
"Any activity where goals are determined and worked towards within a given environment for recreational enjoyment."
This would seem to be sufficient, and this even glosses over the fact that phenomena cannot be defined into or out of existence.

>>42079783
We have never stated this.

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>>42079783
no it isnt

i have been reading this thread through and through

you were the one saying it's only valid for those to vidya by the rules or whatever high standards you set forth

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>>42079784
>>42079787
Have any of you even read the OP?

>Gamer boomers need to accept that times are different now and you can't expect it to be like the classic/old-school days.


No. I do not. And I do not need some snot nosed CoD fanboy that barely plays on the most casual settings imaginable telling me what I "need" to accept about my games.

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>>42079783
Is this all just a game to you?

:P

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I CAME HERE TO SAY THE "N-WORD".

I'M REALLY GONNA DO IT. DON'T TEST ME, MOTHERFUCKERS.

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>>42079789
Gameplay evolves. This is a correct description. Your experience does not negate this state of affairs.

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>>42079789
Completely different.

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>>42079789
>Have any of you even read the OP?
Yeah, and i argued against that too... you just brought it to the other extreme.

>And I do not need some snot nosed CoD fanboy that barely plays on the most casual settings imaginable telling me what I "need" to accept about my games.

You've lost your right to criticize noomins arguing style for 2 weeks.

So sayith me! With no power whatsoever to enforce it.

But seriously, calm the hell down.

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>>42079792
>>42079793
No. I will not accept it. I will not just bow down and let this fucking perpetual easy mode instant gratification spoon fed bullshit be the way games are "supposed" to be played.

I refuse.

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>>42079796
OK good.

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>>42079783
>MY WAY OF ENJOYING IT IS WRONG.
Well... I mean if you're playing a console game with the wrong controller...
Or if you're trying to play through a game on a corrupted file and/or ROM...
Possibly if you're one of those people who find others enjoying a game that you don't and don't like it so you complain to others about it cause other people are having fun...

but in regards to the OP since I haven't actually contributed yet... is it so much to ask for a game to feel complete when it's shipped and not feel like things were taken out of it to pad DLCs and other content additions...?

>>42079796
>I will not just bow down and let this fucking perpetual easy mode instant gratification spoon fed bullshit be the way games are "supposed" to be played.
Oh... so you are doing the third option then...

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>>42079789
The argument that has been ensuing for the last 100 or so posts has virtually nothing to do with my OP.

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>>42079796
You are making up your own reality, and hey, far be it for me to stop you... but im for sure going to point it out.

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>>42079801
Thanks to constant derailment, yes.

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>>42079791
oh you mean nagger?

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>>42079800
Pocket Colour??

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>>42079803
So why did you cite it there?

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>>42079805
>colour
god dammit, Mk17

you're american

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>>42079783
You can play chess without knowing any opens or gambits or bothering to learn them. That's fine. But don't call chess a cheap and broken game when you get beaten by someone who's done a lot of reading on strategy, and demand that Chess 2 be nerfed to be less strategic. If you do that, you're the one ruining someone's hobby. That sort of thing is why Melee is still the most loved Smash game after almost two decades (although Ultimate has finally undone enough of the damage Brawl did for me to finally enjoy the series again, perhaps even more than Melee). Advanced techniques are a good thing in a competitive game, and when they're discovered, the games should accommodate them, not try to stifle them and discourage high level play.

>>42079789
I mean, in the context of Smash Bros, I could probably be considered a boomer. Which makes you not a zoomer, but an outright luddite.

>>42079791
DON'T DO IT

OH GOD HE'S GOT AIRPODS IN, HE CAN'T HEAR US

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I agree with Toybox

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>>42079807
Whelp, he's too far gone... we're gonna have to put him down.

I'll get my ax

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>>42079799
>Possibly if you're one of those people who find others enjoying a game that you don't and don't like it so you complain to others about it cause other people are having fun...

My fucking god. I do not have a problem with people playing how they want to play. I have a problem when THEY force ME to play the way they want to play.

That is LITERALLY what this entire thing is about, and has always been about.

Fuck your meta, I will do what I want and I don't give a fuck what anyone says about me 'not playing it correctly'. I will not succumb to your wave dashing, wall bouncing, rocket jumping bullshit, and if I really wanted to play any of these games I would make it a point to find ways to NOT use any of this cheap bullshit to win, and you can't make me.

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>>42079796
In one breath:
>fuck easy mode instant gratification spoon fer bullshit
In the other:
>I want Smash Bros casualized because I don't know how to deal with wavedashers

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>>42079796
They have their way, you have your own. Neither need exclude the existence of the other.

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>>42079815
I don't play smash because I don't like fighting games and my dyscalcuila makes it nearly impossible for me to play them correctly. That being said you will not change my mind that wave dashing is an exploit.

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>>42079814
>I have a problem when THEY force ME to play the way they want to play.
reminder that if we go all the way back to the wallbouncing argument I already explained how it can be (damn near easily) countered.
nobody is forcing you to do anything

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>>42079807
Am i appropriating your Anglo culture?

>>42079812
Simpsons - Quiet You!

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>>42079813
whats he gonna do next?

call running shoes willy snikers?

>>42079820
yes!
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>>42079813
>>42079821
From here on out i shall only refer to firearms as "Rootie Tootie, point and shootie(s)"

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>>42079814
>fuck the meta
And that's all well and good, but don't be surprised if you lose then.
I play against meta a lot because I wanna have fun and do something different, specifically in LoL.
Do I lose a lot? Oh yeah, like a 85% lose rate at this point... but I enjoy myself because I'm having fun and not caring about winning or proving a point.

Point being, if you're having fun... then who actually gives a shit.

Macaroni !RevGiOKgRoCountry code: ponies-twilight.png, country type: ponyflag, valid: 1  42079825

>>42079823
>Point being, if you're having fun... then who actually gives a shit.

This.

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>>42079814
>if I really wanted to play any of these games I would make it a point to find ways to NOT use any of this cheap bullshit to win
Good! You're only inconveniencing yourself, but that's the correct response really. I don't use bombs in Touhou because I want to actually dodge the patterns, similar principle applies there.

>>42079818
It is, but that's not necessarily a bad thing, and in the opinion of basically everyone who takes Smash Bros seriously (so basically, the opposite of the "casuals" you say you're complaining about), it's one that enhances the game rather than breaking it.

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>>42079822
you fokkin wot m8?

i unno wot that is, yeah

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>>42079819
>nobody is forcing you to do anything

Yes. They do. Constantly. I only played LoL for a week because of the incessant "Ur playing it wrong!" I get shit on for playing Bastion in Overwatch because "he's a trash hero cause he's not in the meta". Whenever I am forced to play smash, people give me shit because I prefer a classic controller to a GameCube controller, and when I do play I just play Jiggly Puff because I already know I'm going to lose anyway.

Point being, yes. I constantly have these gaming millennials who are younger than my fucking steam account trying to tell ME how I need to play the game and they all need to shut the fuck up and go fuck themselves.

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>>42079821
Or he could even start measuring things in metrics and not in freedom units.
>>42079822
The disease has spread to his brain, we're going to have to amputate from the neck up.

>>42079825
>>42079830
Oh hey, people agree with me.
yay

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>>42079827
>I don't use bombs in Touhou
but your scooooooore

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>>42079831
that's crossing the line!

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>>42079823
>And that's all well and good, but don't be surprised if you lose then

No. Fuck that. I shouldn't have to lose just because I play in a way other people don't like. It shouldn't be pre-determined. That is my fucking point.

If the options are 'play the way we tell you' or 'lose' I'm just not going to play your shitty fucking game. Period.

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>>42079829
>>42079837

So you respond by declaring that they must play in this or that way?

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>>42079839
No. I'm saying if their way has made every other way completely unviable, then they have ruined the fucking game.

Period.

Starshine!Laura/wmXMCountry code: ponychan.png, country type: customflag, valid: 42079841

>>42079829
>League
Found part of your problem

But I mean, if you're playing ranked, it kinda makes sense for your team to be upset about you not playing optimally

>>42079837
>I shouldn't have to lose at chess just because my opponent knows the game better than me

>>42079834
Bombs are bad for score in MS. But I should have clarified, I don't use bombs when playing for survival.

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>>42079837
>No. Fuck that. I shouldn't have to lose just because I play in a way other people don't like. It shouldn't be pre-determined. That is my fucking point.
You are turning the tables, i hope you noticed, because I did.

Macaroni !RevGiOKgRoCountry code: ponies-twilight.png, country type: ponyflag, valid: 1  42079844

>>42079840
The game evolved over time.
This is entirely a natural affair that most can adapt to in one way or another.

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>>42079841
>>I shouldn't have to lose at chess just because my opponent knows the game better than me

This is meta bullshit.

I also only played LoL for a week then quit because it was toxic as fuck and not fun. Also I wasn't playing ranked.
This post was edited by its author on .

!ScyphTlOY6Country code: ponies-pinkie.png, country type: ponyflag, valid: 1  42079846

>>42079837
>It shouldn't be pre-determined.
But where do you draw the line? It's one thing for your team to tell you not to play Bastion because he's not in the meta. But what about "don't pick 6 DPS"? Is that also too meta?
This post was edited by its author on .

Macaroni !RevGiOKgRoCountry code: ponies-twilight.png, country type: ponyflag, valid: 1  42079847

>>42079845
Chess literally has a history of strategies and counter-strategies in a convoluted little mess.
Only a few forgotten names have ever declared the game invalid for this.

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>>42079846
No. I can understand not wanting to have 6dps. That is fine. It makes sense from a tactical standpoint.


To be quite fucking honest I don't give a fuck what people pick in Overwatch as long as they do their goddamn job. If you're DPS, kill shit. If you're support, heal shit, if you're Tank, block shit. It's not difficult. 6 DPS just means more shit needs to be dying quicker and if that is not happening, someone is not doing their job properly.

Generally though if there are already two DPS I will heal or tank, unless the DPS are shit, then I will do their job for them.
This post was edited by its author on .

Chewy!!Twilight SparkleCountry code: ponies-twilight.png, country type: ponyflag, valid: 1  42079849

>>42079848
Toy you're acting like the meta-people/zoomers are literally breaking into your house and pointing a gun to your head.
It's not always about winning. You can have fun not playing the meta if you just play a social playlist and mute the tryhards.
Like, not every game has to be played at the same level of competitiveness.
Do you not realize that by being so anti-meta you are essentially attempting to dictate your own meta which is simply a counter to their meta?
Generally even when a game has a meta, an individual player can still do well with skill even if they aren't abiding by it.
This post was edited by its author on .

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>>42079313
Doom was the best video game ever created. Get off my lawn, kid.

Only half kidding.

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>>42079845
>This is meta bullshit
And it's how chess works at the highest level. And how chess has worked throughout much of its existence. You're the "gaming millenial" here for demanding the game neuter itself to be more accessible to you.

I don't understand how you can complain about easy mode and handholding in singleplayer games but also demand to be handheld in multiplayer, competitive games. Seems like...not cognitive dissonance per se, but myopia.

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>>42079851
I'm legit playing Doom right now, between being a sarcastic asshole on the internet.

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>>42079852
I'm not claiming to want to be handheld at all. I will do shit on my own. I do not need you or anyone else telling me what to do.

What I'm saying is if there is only ONE viable strategy, then you don't get choice and if you don't get choice then you don't play the game, the game plays you and I'm not interested.

Macaroni !RevGiOKgRoCountry code: ponies-twilight.png, country type: ponyflag, valid: 1  42079855

Reminder that like 1/3 of ponychan has gathered in this thread, just for the argument.

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>>42079829
>they all need to shut the fuck up and go fuck themselves
Well there's that sad reality where people will say whatever they want and you can't really do much besides just ignore them. God, who knows how well that would work here but you're right about them going to fuck themselves.

>>42079837
>If the options are 'play the way we tell you' or 'lose' I'm just not going to play your shitty fucking game.
Well now, hate to be "that guy" but that's some serious logical fallacy.
Think if we were to use that same reasoning with other classic games.
>Monopoly
I shouldn't lose just because I ran out of money or properties. I say the one who gets rid of all of them should win.
>Chess
Why is the pawn the weakest piece on the board? How about we make all the pieces move like the pawn and see who loses the most pieces to see who wins.
>Super Mario Bros.
Why do I die if I touch an enemy? I think I shouldn't die by just running into the enemy, as a matter of fact there shouldn't be any enemies and I can fly whenever I want

I can keep going on and on with these examples, but I think I've made my point here. The only real difference with these and more modern games is they tend to have an evolving "meta" which shows growth and change over time so it's not the same all the time. In those instances where the "meta" changes, things may becomes over-powered or even under-powered and what people did before doesn't work anymore. With that, you change with the times if you want to keep up and continue winning as you did... or just refuse to change and understand that you won't win in the same frequency. You can continue playing the way you want, but you also have to come to terms with knowing that you won't be as good as other people who have decided to change and adapt with time.

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>>42079853
DOOM Eternal can't come fast enough!
I cum fast enough to Doom Eternal
JKI don't cum for anything

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FUCK, I completely fucked up my analogy when I forgot about TCGs... and even using Keyforge as an example of being what you want.

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>>42079856
You're taking what I said out of context.

I'm not taking about game mechanics.

I'm talking about Meta.

"you can't use that gun because no one else does."
"you can't play that character because none of the pros play that character."
"You can't go that way because that's not the way we normally go."

I don't give a fuck. I find a way that works and that is what I do. Whether it's what other people do or not is of no concern of mine.

!ScyphTlOY6Country code: ponies-pinkie.png, country type: ponyflag, valid: 1  42079860

>>42079852
>>42079854
Neither of you should be using chess as an example of something that's wrong with games. It's actually a perfect example of what both of you want.

Macaroni !RevGiOKgRoCountry code: ponies-twilight.png, country type: ponyflag, valid: 1  42079861

>>42079854
I thought this was about how different a more meta style of gameplay is from whatever the original gameplay had been, rather than a one or done sort of issue?

>>42079859
These are the same words spoken by those who go meta.

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>>42079861
This is about when people find tricks in the game that were never meant to happen in order to railroad every single fucking game down the same exact path with zero variety.

Wavedashing and wallbouncing is like moving your pawn two spaces every turn instead of one because you found some obscure rule that says that you can technically do it even though that is not how the game was designed to be played.

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>>42079859
>I don't give a fuck. I find a way that works and that is what I do.
>>42079837
>If the options are 'play the way we tell you' or 'lose' I'm just not going to play your shitty fucking game.

I feel like I'm getting mixed messages here...
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>>42079857
Pro Tip:

Doom2 + (Brutal doom x Everytime We Touch) = The best way to spend a Friday night.

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>>42079863
Your not. I will try any strategy I find legitimate and if it SHOULD work but the only reason it doesn't is because some bullshit exploit everyone in the game is using, I'm not going to be party to that bullshit and I simply will find something else to play.

I don't really like using wavedashing as an example overall because even though I consider it an exploit it is not the reason I don't play Smash. The reason I don't play smash is because I can't play with the controls being what they are, but that is because of my dyscalcuila.

If that wasn't a hindrance for me and I could actually play Smash on a decent level, I would not wavedash because I find it unethical.
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Macaroni !RevGiOKgRoCountry code: ponies-twilight.png, country type: ponyflag, valid: 1  42079866

>>42079862
If both sides can employ said tricks and tip the scales, then we have a meaningful balance again, intention by developers being largely irrelevant.

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>>42079866
If you are cheating I am not lowering myself to also be a filthy cheater just to compete with you, I will simply leave.

I have fucking standards.

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>>42079854
That's fair, but wavedashing isn't really a "strategy". It's not like every player who uses it has exactly the same playstyle. It's literally just a move you can do. Everyone does it at high level, yeah, but that's because it's basically on the same level as a short hop to forward air. I'm sorry that you personally don't like an unintended use of a game mechanic becoming standardized, but even Sakurai has warmed up to it. I can't find the quote on it, but he basically had a change of heart about whether advanced techniques are a good or bad thing, which explains why the series has been moving back in the direction of allowing them to exist since Brawl.

>>42079860
I'm not using it as an example of what's wrong with games. I'm using it to illustrate that Toy is complaining about something that isn't broken.

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>>42079865
>I find legitimate
Who made you the arbiter of what is or isn't a legitimate way to play the game?

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>>42079862
>you found some obscure rule that says that you can technically do it
What is En Passant and Castling, which are obscure but known rules in the game that to the uninformed seem like cheating because of how odd they are compared to the rest of the pieces and how they move.That is the length of my chess knowledge

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>>42079869
I play by the rules. That is what determines what is and isn't legitimate.
This post was edited by its author on .

Macaroni !RevGiOKgRoCountry code: ponies-twilight.png, country type: ponyflag, valid: 1  42079872

>>42079871
The rules don't define what is fun.

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>>42079872
The rules define what is fair, and I'm not the asshole who will ruin someone else's fun just so I can have my own.

If that is the type of person you are, so be it, but I will not lower myself to that level.

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>>42079867
>>42079865
>bullshit
>cheating
Why do I feel like you use these terms interchangeably?


Honestly this whole conversation is going in so many circles, we're starting to dig a pit...

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>>42079870

>>42079850

__________________

Also, this goes pretty good with brutal doom I Want It That Way

!ScyphTlOY6Country code: ponies-pinkie.png, country type: ponyflag, valid: 1  42079876

>>42079873
You can make that choice without resorting to insulting the people who make a different choice.

Chewy!!Twilight SparkleCountry code: ponies-twilight.png, country type: ponyflag, valid: 1  42079877

>>42079873
I don't know how you could even have fun in video games with all the rules you have honestly. I don't think I've ever met someone as rule-obsessed as you.

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>>42079871
The rules are the game's programming, unless something actually fucks the game entirely, like that one Melee glitch that causes your opponent to freeze in place and be unable to move for the remainder of the fight.

Seriously, there are plenty of game breaking glitches and exploits that are rightfully banned. Wavedashing is not one of them. You can counter wavedashing by gitting gud. Your refusal to do so does not make players who use it cheaters.

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>>42079876
>You can make that choice without resorting to insulting the people who make a different choice.
This

Macaroni !RevGiOKgRoCountry code: ponies-twilight.png, country type: ponyflag, valid: 1  42079880

>>42079873
Circumstances may be fair or unfair, and rules may attempt to create fairness, but they may or may not succeed, and gameplay outside of them may or may not remain fair.
These are not as tightly interwoven as you may think.

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>>42079875
Honestly, fuck chess. I was never good at it and each time I got close I was just shown how much I was walking into a trap.

I like Brutal Doom, but god damn man that Eternal trailer has me so wet I could drown a fleet of migrant children.

Starshine!Laura/wmXMCountry code: ponychan.png, country type: customflag, valid: 42079882

Toy, do you think speedruns that use glitches are illegitimate? Would you really rather watch a glitchless SMB run than a glitch run?

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>>42079881
Yeah, Doom 2016 was amazing. It was the only time i wasn't disappointed by a game in the last 10 years or so...

Lets hope they keep that streak... i mean, it is Bethesda..

!ScyphTlOY6Country code: ponies-pinkie.png, country type: ponyflag, valid: 1  42079884

>>42079882
>Toy, do you think speedruns that use glitches are illegitimate?
Not illegitimate, but less enjoyable.
>Would you really rather watch a glitchless SMB run than a glitch run?
Fuck yes!

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>>42079882
>do you think speedruns that use glitches are illegitimate
Personally, yes. Play the game fast, but don't fucking break it to play fast.

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>>42079882
>speedruns
i will always laugh at this term because of this video

Psycho Dad Destroys Nintendo Switch

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>>42079883
Big games for me in the past 10 years are Bloodborne, God of War (2018), Doom (2016), Divinity: Original Sin, XCom, DotA 2, LISA, Fallout: New Vegas, and Borderlands 2.

And I'm just talking about games I sunk waaaay too much time into playing.

Macaroni !RevGiOKgRoCountry code: ponies-twilight.png, country type: ponyflag, valid: 1  42079888

When are we all going to bed?

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>>42079888
I should be asleep already, but fuck that

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>>42079889
luna is suppose to be awake at night anyway

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>>42079890
Fuck yeah, INSOMNIA

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>>42079887
In the past 10 years, my list would prob be doom 2016, The Stanly Parable, and Cities Skylines.
DayZ was okay, as was Stardew valley.

I dont game much. I pretty much just play doom and smash haha.

I'm the epitome of the "gamer boomer"

Chewy!!Twilight SparkleCountry code: ponies-twilight.png, country type: ponyflag, valid: 1  42079893

>>42079888
Right now tbh.
Nice trips.

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>>42079887
>LISA
Patrician

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>>42079886
Oh geez

>>42079884
>>42079885
Welll...not my cup of tea personally. Glitchless SMB is boring imo. But I guess it depends on the game and the glitch. Watching Kosmic and Wes pull off the frame perfect, subpixel perfect 1-2 pipe clip is way more exciting than watching them go over the pipe, but that's just me.

On the other hand, I've even warmed up to glitch runs of Sonic games, because those level wraps are damn satisfying to watch...just S3&K is a bit too broken, the one game I care about glitchless in. But that's why we have multiple categories!

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>>42079882
I've never had an interest in speedruns. I find them boring.

I'll respond to other posts in a minute.

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Macaroni !RevGiOKgRoCountry code: ponies-twilight.png, country type: ponyflag, valid: 1  42079898

>>42079896
>I've never had an interest in speedruns. I find them boring.

nigga you WAT

Starshine!Laura/wmXMCountry code: ponychan.png, country type: customflag, valid: 42079899

>>42079888
I just woke up.

>>42079892
I mostly play shmups, what am I?

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>>42079892
I spend every waking moment not at work playing something.
>>42079894
Fak
>>42079895
To each their own, but the only glitch run I have ever really enjoyed is Mario 64.
>>42079899
A punk

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>>42079899
Someone who doesn't respond to smash requests on discord.

Macaroni !RevGiOKgRoCountry code: ponies-twilight.png, country type: ponyflag, valid: 1  42079902

>>42079900
Ocarina of Time never caught your attention?

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>>42079902
Honestly no, but that may be because of how many fucking people out there talk about it being the best game ever made.

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>>42079878
My core problems with wavedashing is this: The effect being uses is meant to be used while coming down from in the air. Wave dashing is getting that effect while you are on the ground. You are skipping a primary step in the function of how that part of the game is supposed to work and that doesn't sit right with me. It's on the same level as animation canceling in order to reload a weapon faster than intended.

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>>42079891
i know how you feel

>>42079895
it's all staged

no worries

but still funny

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>>42079898
I don't understand what is interesting about them.

Macaroni !RevGiOKgRoCountry code: ponies-twilight.png, country type: ponyflag, valid: 1  42079907

>>42079904
The game was programmed that way, it can be learned, it doesn't create a necessarily one-sided match, the communities have accepted it.
You're free to play sessions that don't utilize them.

!ScyphTlOY6Country code: ponies-pinkie.png, country type: ponyflag, valid: 1  42079908

>>42079904
>It's on the same level as animation canceling in order to reload a weapon faster than intended.
This is actually an intended mechanic in CoD, as evidenced by the fact that Black Ops 4 now has an option for how reload canceling interacts with the sprint button.

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>>42079907
It's still skipping a step that is supposed to be taken.

It bothers me.

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Macaroni !RevGiOKgRoCountry code: ponies-twilight.png, country type: ponyflag, valid: 1  42079911

>>42079906
It's literally an almost gymnastic artform that bends the game in unpredictable yet strangely artistic ways?

>>42079909
What the developers thought would happen in gameplay, does not equal fun, fair or good.

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>>42079900
Punk is dead.

>the only glitch run I have ever really enjoyed is Mario 64

But see, even you recognize the value of glitch runs. Watching Mario 64 get destroyed with BLJs is an amazing experience.

There are definitely more games than just S3&K that I care about glitchless in, actually. Sonic R is another one, OoB runs of that game bore me. But I play Sonic R even more ethically than the no-OoB players do, because they play with winter weather enabled, letting them run on water, which to me makes runs less skillful.

But I'm not gonna complain about the community playing unethically. I'll do my ethical runs, and post it if I get a good one, and maybe a new category will be born. That's how speedrunning works. If there is merit to a certain ruleset and you demonstrate that merit, there will be a crowd for it.

>>42079901
Sorry, this convo's been distracting me (while eating "breakfast") and I also don't get push notifs on my phone. x_x

I can be ready in like, 5-10 minutes.

>>42079904
Well, you do have to be in the air for wavedashing to work. Just, you wanna be in the air very briefly.

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>>42079910
and with this video i just got sent to the 90's

hello my childhood

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>>42079916
>synths were still used in the 90's
i swear the 90's were just the 80's 2.0

i remember this shit

Mk17Country code: blank.gif, country type: ponyflag, valid: 1 42079918

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>>42079912
>Well, you do have to be in the air for wavedashing to work. Just, you wanna be in the air very briefly.
This.

>I can be ready in like, 5-10 minutes.

Sorry Champ, I've gotta be out of the house at 8 tomorrow, so im going to bed.

I expect some solid conclusions from this thread by the time i get up.

Macaroni !RevGiOKgRoCountry code: ponies-twilight.png, country type: ponyflag, valid: 1  42079919

>>42079918
>I expect some solid conclusions from this thread by the time i get up.

...You'll either be really satisfied or really disappointed.
Also, Goodnight.
This post was edited by its author on .

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>>42079917
and the 00's were the 80's 3.0

Bad Boy

Macaroni !RevGiOKgRoCountry code: ponies-twilight.png, country type: ponyflag, valid: 1  42079921

>>42079920
Wait, so what does this make the 70's?

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>>42079919
I'm always really satisfied.

G'night.

Starshine!Laura/wmXMCountry code: blank.gif, country type: ponyflag, valid: 1 42079923

>>42079918
lol, rip
Good night!

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>>42079921
Beta 80's

Don't Stop 'Til You Get Enough
This post was edited by its author on .

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>>42079920
i disagree honestly

the 00's was a major chamge

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Oh, 1 more thing.

>>42079909
Just because I disagree with you about this, I still consider you a great friend and I'm glad to have you in my life.

Your the bees knees!

___________________
NOWWWW im going to bed.

[✔]And this time, i mean it!

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>>42079931
Lets put a pin in it for now, but this is worth discussion.

ChewyCountry code: ponychan.png, country type: customflag, valid: 42079948

I don't think the 90s and the 80s were similar at all honestly. My mom once told me that the 90s was the first decade where "it was cool to be a loser". And the music was drastically different. I mean think about any 80s pop rock compared to stuff like Nirvana, or likewise 80s hip-hop compared to 90s hip-hop. Night and day difference.

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>>42079948
The way I describe it is this: The 80's was one giant house party. The 90's is the point in which people started getting a little too drunk.

The 2000's was the hangover the next morning, and 2010+ has been us trying to clean up the mess that was left over before the parents come home.

a lost pony !piNKiEPie.Country code: ponies-derpy.png, country type: ponyflag, valid: 1  42079951

>>42079950
There are only two eras:

S1 G4 to present
And the "Before Time"

Macaroni !RevGiOKgRoCountry code: ponies-twilight.png, country type: ponyflag, valid: 1  42079969

>>42079950
Is 2016 the botched attempt at a decent breakfast then?

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>>42079948
Idk, there was such a mix its hard to say.

Like, you could compare Billie Idol for the 80's and Weezer from the 90's and it paints a completely different picture.

Or you could compare N.W.A to Will Smith.

There was a mix of depressing and uplifting music, there always is.

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>>42079948
the reason why i say the two decades are similar is because they are

like almost everything in the 90's is just a carry over from the 80's

hell, in the early 90's the fashion was almost the same as the 80's

only biggest difference when it came to music was the fact they were moving away from analog synths

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>>42080066
It was a progression. Music is normally built off the sounds of the past, tweaked to make something new.

All art really.

But the 80s for sure had a unique sound.

Space Age Love Song

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>>42080068
things just began getting more digital as time progressed

hell, i remember when renting DVD's was the norm

now it's pretty much just digital

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>>42080069
LOL, I remember when renting VHS was the norm...

Also, that unique 80s sound... started in the 70s
Gary Numan - Cars

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>>42080070
as do i

and i remember using like 20 floppy disks to install windows and other programs

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>>42080071
Haha yup!

I remember finding out my computer had 4MB of ram, and that was enough to play Doom. But I had to un-install it when i was done because the HDD was only 10MB, my dad spared no expense on that IBM 386 haha.

But back to music, i think its weird that people always go right to grunge when they think of the 90s. I was having the convo at work today, i felt the 90s had a clean feel to it... like everything was blue and white and clean.
That being said, i also think of the 90s being dull and dim and dirty like an old auto shop.

I guess it depends on if you were listening to TLC or Pearl Jam at the moment haha.

Whether you were playing Quake or 1080 snowboarding haha.

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>>42080072
when i picture the 90's i just picture this really wonky time when everything was just off

the music was good however

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>>42080073
The 90s was also when the rave scene was huge too.
Dune - Can't Stop Raving (Official Audio)

Back when we called it "techno" as an all encompassing term for electronic music haha.

And even that can be traced back to the 80s and 70s

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>>42080074
ah, i can remember the whole techno era

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>>42079313
>$200 to reach Level 200 Tier
what the actual fuck???

Chewy!!Twilight SparkleCountry code: ponies-twilight.png, country type: ponyflag, valid: 1  42080089

>tfw I remember VHS and walkmans

>>42080087
paying is optional and tbf if you do that you're paying to skip like 100 hours of gameplay

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>>42080076
They were simpler times. I remeber my local FOX affiliate using "sandstorm" for a local news promo haha.

Ahhh... Good ol WNAC uhf channel 64...

Now im nostalgic for when they had to broadcast their FCC call sign haha. I should hook up my rabbit ears.

>>42080087
A buck a tier... Not bad! Haha.

>>42080089
My walkman was waterproof! Haha

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Broke: western 80's pop
Woke: city pop

AnonymousCountry code: blank.gif, country type: ponyflag, valid: 1 42080187

>>42080089
>>42080094
It's not fair if snobby rich kids like tmartn can get them instantly and leave us poorfags in the dust

AnonymousCountry code: blank.gif, country type: ponyflag, valid: 1 42080188

What's even worse
A buck for a fucking red dot
The "it's just cosmetic excuse" gets immediately flushed down the drain

AnonymousCountry code: blank.gif, country type: ponyflag, valid: 1 42080189

Moreover it's not just 100 hours of gameplay
If you want multiple weapons at 200, you're talking 1000s, more than humanly possible before the season ends
I feel Fortnite does the battle pass rewards system much better

Chewy!!Twilight SparkleCountry code: ponies-twilight.png, country type: ponyflag, valid: 1  42080200

>>42080187
Well, hate to say it, but, that's capitalism!
>>42080188
the dot thing I have to admit is retarded but again you don't have to buy it, I'd argue you'd have to be a fucking moron to even care about that when you can get way better reticles for free
>>42080189
>If you want multiple weapons at 200, you're talking 1000s, more than humanly possible before the season ends
nigga what
there are currently 3 weapons earned through tiers: Daemon SMG at 50, SWAT AR at 100, and then the KAP-40 pistol which takes 25 tiers that can be progressed at the same time as the other set (so if you were already at 100, it would make it 125, but if you were at 75, it would still only be 100).
There's no weapon that requires even close to tier 200, and even if there was, 200 tiers = 100 hours of gameplay max. Idk where you're getting "1000s" from.

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>>42079969
Basically what happened was that 2001 (9/11 specifically), was like getting into a horrendous car crash while driving drunk on the way home from the party. Ever since then we've been incredibly paranoid about everything, because we are afraid of getting into a similar situation. All the wild and crazy shit we did before that we are now trying to push away so we can take everything seriously and any little thing that might feel like we're going back down that route is bad and we are avoiding it.

This is basically what PC culture is, us being more and more paranoid about doing anything that may be reckless.

Macaroni !RevGiOKgRoCountry code: ponies-twilight.png, country type: ponyflag, valid: 1  42080243

>>42080241
I'll say here that doing the opposite and deriving self-esteem or validation from the disapproval and offense of others, is also about as restrictive and generally stupid. Would rather that we can be open and frank, but not dependent on denial nor catharsis.

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>>42080243
I think it's less about being offensive and more about just being willing to enjoy things that are sometimes not in good taste. I'm not saying everything has to be that kind of humor, but humor is drawn from the absurd and sometimes the absurd involves things that aren't the cleanest or upstanding.

I feel there is a distinct difference between satire and offense, the problem mainly stems from people who cannot tell the difference.

Let's look at something like Rocky Horror Picture Show. The depiction of Dr. Frankenfurter, the main antagonist, is a HORRIBLE depiction of transgender/LGBT people in general. But the movie is over the top and absurd all over the place. That's the point of the movie. It's pure camp. Should I be offended by Tim Curry's character in that movie? No, of course not. It's ridiculous because it's supposed to be funny and I get what is funny about it.

It's when people start taking these jokes as fact that cause major issues, it's when people take things overly seriously when the problems arrise. Would I call Tim Curry homophobic or transphobic for playing such a character? No of course not. The thought probably never crossed his mind when filming the movie. I'll bet money his only thought was "how entertaining can I make this character for the audience?" It's when people take stuff like this and twist it into something it was never intended to be, that is when our ability to laugh at ourselves and enjoy the absurdity of life starts to fade, and all that is left is a bunch of people who are always miserable and always offended.

Now if someone is straight up insulting you, that is not satire, nor is that okay. People just need to learn the difference, because they seem to have forgotten it lately.

Macaroni !RevGiOKgRoCountry code: ponies-twilight.png, country type: ponyflag, valid: 1  42080250

>>42080247
The issue of PC culture is, when meant in a concerned manner, the pendulum having swung too far in the direction of newfound respect for this or that minority group and into plain policing, which I will agree is an issue worth addressing.
However, I must emphasize that the issue can also be twisted into either a revival for open scorn and intolerance, or simply a justification for material meant to goad and bait the public into negative responses and reactions, for whatever purposes.
Essentially think of it like satire vs libel, and two people doing either are both pointing to Free Speech as to why they should go on undisturbed. An approach that addresses both is what would seem most balanced, as far as I can judge.

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>>42080250
The primary issue with PC culture is a tale that has been told for millennia. The boy who cried wolf. Too many false alarms and people are going to stop taking you seriously.

That is primarily the danger that PC culture causes. If you cry "rape" every time someone looks at you in a way you didn't feel comfortable with, eventually people crying rape are going to be ignored completely, even if it actually IS valid.

What this boils down to is not understanding intent, and intent means everything. If someone says something that could be considered offensive, but when they said it they weren't really thinking about it in that way, and people start to dogpile on that person for what they said instead of what they meant, eventually those people are going to have their complaints dismissed even when they actually are valid.

It's not about 'suck it up and stop being offended' more than it is, 'Consider if that thing was actually meant to offend you, or are you seeing something that isn't actually there.'

The major issue right now is that when people say they fear PC culture, the proponents of PC culture are like, "You just want to say the N word." but that isn't actually the case. What is actually happening is people are scared they may say or do something they have no idea is offensive to someone, without meaning to be offensive to anyone, and have someone get offended by it.

An example of this is say you were writing a story about some guy that was super rich and he had a butler that worked for him and his family for years. Like say, Bruce Wayne and Alfred. Everyone likes this duo, they understand the dynamic.

Now let's say someone remakes Batman but casts Alfred as a black man. Same exact character, same association to Bruce Wayne, same exact depiction of characters.

This would never happen. Do you know why? Even if the intent was to diversify a story, there are thousands of people that would IMMEDIATELY throw a fit because a 'black man serves a white family'. It would be a shit show.

What is this? This is basically racism, but it's from the side that says they are against racism. If the characters change nothing but the colors of their skin, why is one offensive and the other is not? There is no implication here, the only implication comes from people misinterpreting what they are seeing as something it's not supposed to be and then getting outraged over it.

This is where we have problems, because instead of real issues being addressed, these pointless issues get all the attention when they weren't even meant in the way people are making them out to be in the first place.
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!ScyphTlOY6Country code: ponies-pinkie.png, country type: ponyflag, valid: 1  42080291

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>>42080270
>Now let's say someone remakes Batman but casts Alfred as a black man. Same exact character, same association to Bruce Wayne, same exact depiction of characters.
This is why Smithers was originally black and then changed to not-black.


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