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File: 1593227844417.jpg (212.18 KB, 1240x1754, 1588500751801.jpg)

!Slavshit.Y (ID: 2ca286)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid:   392187[View All]

#Politics
Do you believe in/endorse democracy? To what extent should people rule themselves? If you don't, what is your alternative?
This post was edited by its author on .
251 posts and 211 image replies omitted. Click View to see all.

(ID: e611b3)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  392664

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>>392658
i will will fully agree that puritan views are lame as hell

but is that really just a religious thing in general?

>>392663
>Would you say the same thing about being drunk?
oh i wanna know this too!
This post was edited by its author on .

!Slavshit.Y (ID: 2ca286)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  392665

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>>392663

No, because being drunk physically harms you, all the time, always. It cannot be said that faith does.

(ID: 90484e)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  392666

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>>392664
>but is that really just a religious thing in general?
That is literally where it comes from. Do you want to know why it took so long for gay marriage to be legal? Because religious people thinking their religion trumps people's rights. It's the same song and dance over and over. At the heart of every push against personal rights, there's a religion at the heart of it.


>>392665
>No, because being drunk physically harms you, all the time, always. It cannot be said that faith does.
I mean it can be. You just won't agree with it.
This post was edited by its author on .

(ID: e611b3)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  392668

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>>392666
>666
heh

anyway, i see what you're saying here

but i am pretty sure not all religion follows a puritan form, right?

!Slavshit.Y (ID: 2ca286)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  392669

>>392666

The only distinction that needs to be made is that being drunk is ALWAYS harmful, faith is not. It is good as often as it can be harmful at the very least, if not mostly good.

(ID: 90484e)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  392671

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>>392668
Oh, not always. But it's almost always oppressive.

Islam is oppressive in it's own way. As is Judaism and Hinduism. Hell, even Shinto is very big on traditions and rituals that embed themselves into popular culture.

The only one that I can say is probably least oppressive is Buddhism, but that religion is basically just about stagnation. It's inherently self-destructive.

(ID: 90484e)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  392674

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>>392668
Hell, you do know that the KKK is a religious organization, right? Baptist, I think.

So is the Boy Scouts of America. Protestant.
This post was edited by its author on .

!Slavshit.Y (ID: 2ca286)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  392676

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>>392671

>tradition and ritual = oppression


Imagine unironically believing this.

(ID: 90484e)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  392678

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>>392676
If you are forced to abide by the rituals or traditions, that qualifies as oppression.

!Slavshit.Y (ID: 2ca286)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  392681

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>>392678

Most religions are voluntary, if you choose to be part of it you choose to participate.

(ID: 90484e)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  392682

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>>392681
Oh the religions themselves are, sure. It's when the people who are part of the religion start making laws by using their religion as a framework. That's where the oppression sets in.

(ID: e611b3)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  392683

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>>392671
that kinda seems off...

>>392674
okay sure, but that doesn't group all sectors as the same thing


unless i am misunderstanding you

which is very likely

!Slavshit.Y (ID: 2ca286)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  392684

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>>392682

That's only an issue if the culture values a separation of religion and the state. If the people choose to mix them, it is not oppression.

You brought up Shinto as an example. Shinto is infused into the very heart of Japanese culture, not everyone takes it seriously, but they choose to continue doing it because they value the preservation of their way of life and traditions.

Believe it or not, most people enjoy having a connection to their people and past.

(ID: 90484e)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  392685

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>>392683
>okay sure, but that doesn't group all sectors as the same thing
>unless i am misunderstanding you
>which is very likely

What I'm saying is that there are a lot of religious organizations that don't advertise themselves as such. This is how they manipulate the secular parts of the country. They know that the secular population won't follow their religious beliefs if portrayed as such outright, so they create organizations that pretend to be something else to entice the secular people and indoctrinate them by simply replacing any religious sounding words with secular ones. That way they can implant the ideals even amongst the non-followers. Even if you consider yourself an atheist and secular in general there is a good chance you've inadvertently served the church at some point, they are very good at that.

Hell, despite the fact that there are more than 10 Amendments to the constitution the first 10 are in something called the Bill of Rights, specifically to separate them into 10, so that they closely mimic the 10 commandments. The idea is to get the population comfortable with a 'rule set of 10' so they can more easily swap the two out on the fly and people will be less likely to notice. I wouldn't be surprised if there's at least a small section of the population that thinks the Bill of Rights ARE the 10 commandments. Not many though, granted. You'd have to be a really backwater bumfuck to hit that mark. Wouldn't surprise me if they exist though.

(ID: e611b3)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  392687

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>>392685
i mean, the reason why there is only 10 0n the bill rights is because that is what was ratified

so anyone who thinks it is related to commandments is wrong

hell, they're rights and not commands at all

which i know you know this

(ID: 90484e)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  392689

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>>392687
It's all about the symbolism, Mikie.

Like slowly boiling a frog so it won't jump out of the water.

Chain!Wall.j2i4Y (ID: 75fbaa)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  392690

>>392685
I'd go so far to say that SJW'ism is basically a religion, or at least has many characteristics of a religion.

(ID: 90484e)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  392691

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>>392690
Less religion and more fanaticism.

(ID: e611b3)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  392692

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>>392689
>Like slowly boiling a frog so it won't jump out of the water.
ah, so federalism in a nutshell

(ID: 90484e)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  392694

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>>392692
What I mean is that they get you accustomed to the symbolism and the traditions to the point where they are just normal things for you and then they slowly start to seed in the religious values in such a way that you don't notice until they own you.

(ID: e611b3)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  392695

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>>392694
religion is the least' of my worries

big government is what smells the worst

(ID: 90484e)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  392698

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>>392695
Why do you think that is, Mikie?

I'll give you a hint: Find anyone in big government that is being a shit and then google what their religious affiliation is.
This post was edited by its author on .

Aurum (ID: 0fddc5)Country code: ponychan.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  392701

>>392695
>big government is what smells the worst
I hate anarchy.

!Slavshit.Y (ID: 2ca286)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  392703

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>>392698

Define "being a shit"

!smiles.Drs (ID: 66682d)Country code: ponychan.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  392704

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>>392698
1. Incredibly subjective
2. You can't ascribe their issues and stances directly to their faith because of the wide differences people with the same faith will vote

(ID: 90484e)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  392706

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>>392703
I'm letting Mikie define that, since he's the one that is talking about them being shit.

>>392704
>You can't ascribe their issues and stances directly to their faith because of the wide differences people with the same faith will vote

Watch me.

dragoni!XponyNZ6g6 (ID: 217f04)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  392710

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>>392661
Wouldn't the entire foundation of that religion fall apart if....idk
An extent of education beyond Youtube was applied?

!smiles.Drs (ID: 66682d)Country code: ponychan.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  392711

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>>392706
I mean sure you "can" but do you feel smart doing so?

(ID: e611b3)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  392714

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>>392698
isn't entirely relevant, really

(ID: 90484e)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  392715

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>>392711
No. There are many factors at play though and every one should be taken into consideration. Is the fact that someone is christian the reason they are a shit person? Absolutely not. However one should consider how someone can justify to themselves to be a shit person but also hold that sort of conviction.

My main beef with religion, and all aspects of Christianity for the most part stem from the arbitrary nature of it. The rules are arbitrary. And if they aren't arbitrary, more often than not they are used as an excuse to do shitty things.

Yeah, sure they can do drives for the homeless and 'charity work' but so did the Nazi's to drum up support. That doesn't mean anything. My biggest beef is the fact that there is no good reasoning behind the rules they make up beyond 'because you're told to". That doesn't fly with me, it never has and never will. If you want me to follow your rules, give me a practical reason for it, don't just threaten me with eternal damnation or try to tempt me with eternal paradise. I'm not that easily manipulated.

If that's the game you want to play on your own time, feel free. I don't give a rat's ass. You try to bring any of those practices into law though (Which many already have and still exist) that is when I have a problem.

!Slavshit.Y (ID: 2ca286)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  392818

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>>392715

>The rules are arbitrary


No they're not, you just assume they are because you disagree with them and as such don't bother to look into why they exist.

>more often than not they are used as an excuse to do shitty things.


Subjective, what you consider shitty someone else will consider positive.

>Yeah, sure they can do drives for the homeless and 'charity work' but so did the Nazi's to drum up support.


Are you seriously comparing Christians to Nazis? Godwin's Law at its finest.

>My biggest beef is the fact that there is no good reasoning behind the rules they make up beyond 'because you're told to".


Wrong again. You've just never bothered to understand why.

Mk17 (ID: 1cc4e5)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  392828

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>>392818
>Godwin's Law at its finest.
Before the nazis, wasn't it the romans that everything got compared against? I cant think of anything in between that had such an impact on political culture in the west.

Like, i remember my dad saying that the romans were pretty much talked about like the nazis are today in his catholic school.

!Slavshit.Y (ID: 2ca286)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  392830

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>>392828

I don't think so, everyone always larped as or wanted to otherwise emulate the Romans for millennia, almost nobody wants to be like the Nazis.

But then, they did kill Jesus, so that would make sense in your dad's situation.

Mk17 (ID: 1cc4e5)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  392831

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>>392830
Yeah, that was the thing, they killed jesus. So like, yeah, leaders wanted to be like the romans, like Napoleon, but like average people didnt like them because the Christian chrurch didnt like them. Thats the impression i got anyway.

Ether way, i cant think of much between the romans and nazi Germany that really had that kind of impact on western society, where like, every conversation if gone on long enough would refer back to them.

>nobody wants to be like the Nazis.

Thats arguable.
This post was edited by its author on .

!Slavshit.Y (ID: 2ca286)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  392839

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>>392831

>almost


And I don't think the church really disliked the Romans, after all the church was functionally a part of the late Roman government. They really shifted the blame to the Jews hard.

Mk17 (ID: 9fb2b6)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  392843

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>>392839
>after all the church was functionally a part of the late Roman government
Exactly, which is why i never quite understood. Maybe it was a "the romans sucked until we got involved" thing?

Especially since it was an Italian ghetto, at least in my dads case, you'd think they would be more all 'bout dem romans haha.

Also, i wish you took me up on that argument. Barring the intrusion of a bunch of ideologues that make it hard to talk about these things, I think everyone wants to be like nazi Germany, even if they hated the ideology, it went from being economically broken and utterly neutered to a world threatening industrial and technological powerhouse in a very short amount of time.
I think 1950s America took a lot of inspiration from them. The biggest difference being we were economically booming and didnt need to scapegoat anyone. Plus, our political system was very different and its would have been harder for one man to have so much micro management power.

!Slavshit.Y (ID: 2ca286)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  392844

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>>392843

>Exactly, which is why i never quite understood. Maybe it was a "the romans sucked until we got involved" thing?


The early church had a love/hate relationship with Greco-Roman culture. They loved philosophy insofar as it could be used to understand God, and were happy to accept imperial sponsorship and use civil buildings for their congregations (basilicas, anyone?)

If anyone wants to be like the Nazis, I think they keep that on the down-low if they're not retarded.

Anonymous (ID: 13423d)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  392845

>>392830
The third reich was an exact implementation of Nietzsche's philosophy. Nietzsche loved the Romans.

!Slavshit.Y (ID: 2ca286)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  392846

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>>392845

>exact implementation


Not quite. The Nazis fundamentally misunderstood Nietzsche. They left with the /pol/-tier understanding of it, but missed the parts where Nietzsche directly contradicted their ideology.

Mk17 (ID: 1cc4e5)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  392848

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>>392844
Fair enough, about the romans. Still, leave open the question would fill the roll in so far as godwins law between the 2.

Also, maybe your not understanding me, there were parts of nazi Germany that had nothing to do with the core ideology, that the US and russia took inspiration from.
Don't just see the word "nazi" and roll it all into one thing.
Interstate highway systems, a push for stem field education, national pride campaigns, funding of scientific endeavors ect.. the whole culture of the 1950s where news reels would teach you everything from how to clean your ears properly, how to date, how to eat to how automatic transmissions worked and how to spot a commie haha, a lot was heavily influenced by what the US learned about nazi Germany.
There is no such thing as good and evil, so you can look to your enemy and see where they have had success structurally and emulate it, without needing to adopt their philosophy or ideals.

>>392846
Just had this convo. The nazis didnt give a fuck about Nietzsche beyond that he was a celebrity they could use to validate themselves to self proclaimed intellectuals.
This post was edited by its author on .

!Slavshit.Y (ID: 2ca286)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  392851

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>>392848

Well yeah, the US and USSR were happy to take advantage of their accomplishments, but I don't think they cared for the ideology.

Who doesn't want to borrow the advancements that others worked so hard for?

Mk17 (ID: 1cc4e5)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  392852

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>>392851
>but I don't think they cared for the ideology.
Right, thats why ive made this clear at least twice now.

There are 2 sides to the coin of how government structure operates. There is the ideological side, and there is the engineering side that actually has to keep things running correctly.
Nazi Germany did a good job of turning around the economy, getting people on the same page, setting up good infrastructure, training and educating people, ect...
Those kinds of things weren't motivated by ideology, you could plug almost any ideology into the political slot, but the actual functionality of a well organized situation like that is run by folks who could care less about an ideology beyond "eh, thats neat".

Its like, are you a part of the political ideology that happens to run your city right now? Is the school department you work for, no, your concerns are just making sure things run smoothly in your classroom regardless of the ideology in power.
And i dont mean, what you teach, i mean how you teach it. Thats the separation, the nazis may have taught garbage, but they taught it well.
So, what country wouldnt want to emulate the parts that worked but are ideologically neutral?
This post was edited by its author on .

!Slavshit.Y (ID: 2ca286)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  392858

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>>392852

>Right, thats why ive made this clear at least twice now.


Yeah I get that.

>Nazi Germany did a good job of turning around the economy


Superficially, I think. Their system was destined to collapse if they didn't keep expanding militarily.

>So, what country wouldnt want to emulate the parts that worked but are ideologically neutral?


None, I think.

Mk17 (ID: 1cc4e5)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  392864

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>>392858
>Their system was destined to collapse if they didn't keep expanding militarily.
Okay, so maybe some things we took didnt work out so well haha.

!Slavshit.Y (ID: 2ca286)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  392866

>>392864

MILITARY
INDUSTRIAL
COMPLEX

Mk17 (ID: 1cc4e5)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  392872

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>>392866
Eisenhower tried to warn us maaan!

Anonymous (ID: 13423d)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  392878

Anonymous (ID: 13423d)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  392971

In all seriousness, "religion founded the bedrock of science" isn't just some trekkie retroprojection. Christian and jewish mysticisms started the tree-structure of scientific thought processes that'd later have their languages changed into something secular. The obvious difference between alchemy and chemistry is that alchemy used the language of theism, the "aspects of god," to name its proto-elements and their reactions. The dreamspace of the world was such that all aspects of life were tied to this religiosity, so it came naturally to do the same with their sciences, but the theistic "baggage" didn't hinder the sciences at all. A lot of the same people who did studies on the old kabbalist theurgies would later take this same knowledge and use it to found the bedrock of modern computing. It's easy to see how Theology, the science of determining the logic of god based upon the priority of statements attributed to him, lends itself to a style of thinking in conditionals that easily ports over to the logic of computer programming. Just look at Terry Davis. They are intimately linked.

Symbols are tools. If anything, it's the direction you go with your symbols that judges you.
If you say "heheh, god doesn't real" but you also subscribe to singularity theory or interstellar empire, you're imminentizing the Eschaton even if you're not calling it that. When you realize all our successes and failures are the product of impersonal forces, it no longer matters whether or not you literally anthropomorphize these forces, because this is at least how the Epicureans felt. They were slandered as atheists even though they didn't deny the gods at all. They just denied their involvement.

Anonymous (ID: 3224d4)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  392982

>>392187
No.

>To what extent should people rule themselves?

As much as is possible. So long as you do not violate the rights of others, you should be free to do as you choose.
The only exceptions really are if you're either so messed up mentally that you're an active threat to others, or if you're doing something that causes damages to others like say dumping waste or some such.

>If you don't, what is your alternative?

As localized governments as is possible, with a strong constitution.

I long for the days of AI replacing judges. If we can get that, I think you might actually see a properly stable system, as justice and law is actually issued and decided on evenly and fairly, as opposed to just by the opinion of someone.

Snowbell (ID: 697c1b)Country code: pittsburgh.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  393018

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>>392971
>If you say "heheh, god doesn't real" but you also subscribe to singularity theory or interstellar empire, you're imminentizing the Eschaton even if you're not calling it that.

Hi Robert Anton Wilson! I didn't know you posted here. Can't say I'm surprised though.


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