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File: 1581291933632.jpg (93.81 KB, 780x436, harley_quinn__0.jpg)

Female empowerment in Hollywood movies (and also pop music) Chewy!MUSIC.FbVY (ID: 7a2231)Country code: bug.png, country type: customflag, valid:   358663[Last 50 Posts]

I have a feeling I'm gonna regret making this thread, buuut...

Yesterday I saw the new Harley Quinn movie, 'Birds Of Prey', at the theater. It was a fun, silly movie with almost nonstop brutal action that was satisfying to watch, well-choreographed/stylized enough to not be boring, antagonist was decent enough, full-on hard R rating unlike most comic book films, etc. A lot of the humor was cringey but I could forgive it because the action made the film as a whole engaging enough to sit through.
So basically overall it was like a solid 7/10 popcorn flick.

However, after me and my brother left the theater, he said to me "I don't like how much they pushed the whole 'female empowerment' thing" and I said "Well what did you expect, it's a movie about Harley Quinn" but later on I thought about that and how Hollywood really has...a problem with how it portrays female empowerment.

For comparison, the film 'Joker', while obviously intended to be far more serious, artistic, topical etc., was not intending you to look at the Joker/Arthur Fleck as a good person, a role model, an idol etc. There's actually an image I've seen shared a lot that he is featured on, among other male characters such as Rick Sanchez, Bojack Horseman, Walter White, and a few others, with the caption If you idolize them, you missed the point.

But I feel like Birds Of Prey was presenting Harley Quinn as some kind of heroine despite the fact that she's literally a murderous psychopath in most other portrayals. It doesn't make sense to have her be this symbol of "girl power" imo, and the film's attempt at humanizing her, so to speak, felt very hamfisted. "Oh, she goes around breaking people's limbs for fun, but she protects a kid, and she doesn't kill cops because in these films cops are the "good guys"." It just comes off as strange to me, that, as far as I can tell, this movie is trying to make her be all badass and cool. And I'm not trying to say that it shouldn't be allowed or that it isn't enjoyable, I just feel like it sends a weird message to potential viewers, especially young ones. And maybe I'm just looking into it too much, but it makes me think about other films like 'Hustlers' that have similar portrayals of "strong women".

And then you veer into pop music and the whole "sex sells" phenomenon that seems particularly focused on...well, women, but that's kind of a whole other discussion.

Maybe it's an unfair comparison, again, because as I mentioned 'Birds Of Prey' and 'Joker' obviously were trying to achieve very different things, but I just want to point out that Joker was very clearly influenced by Martin Scorsese films, especially 'Taxi Driver', which often deal with the rise and fall of dangerous, violent, criminal men. But unlike 'Birds Of Prey' and other films that portray dangerous, violent women, Scorsese's films have a very human element to them. It's very obvious that these kinds of actions (breaking limbs, shooting people, snorting cocaine, stealing, etc.) are meant to be seen as sins, and ultimately their downfall, as they succumb to madness and corruption and failure as Christian men (in some cases).
I just can't help but feel like Hollywood is taking these normally male archetypes and applying them to women, but passing it off as an empowerment thing, rather than the true horror it is.

One more thing: I'm curious about anyone here's recommendations for films that show female empowerment in a positive way, in your opinions.

As far as music goes, I can certainly name a few, like Rapsody who made an album last year where every song is a tribute to a historically significant black female woman, with powerful emotional lyricism, and fantastic production on the instrumentals, and skillful flow/rapping. Or if you want to reach farther back into history, there is Nina Simone. And delving into the more abstract, you could pick artists like Julia Holter and Joanna Newsom.

Snowbell (ID: c654b9)Country code: pittsburgh.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  358665

File: 1581293167921.jpg (193.38 KB, 1023x1445, b55885d82c05f9d2ae68ae6088e528…)

I haven't seen Birds of Prey but generally "female empowerment" seems to take the form of women acting exactly like angry manlets. Scampering about, screeching, biting people's ankles and generally making a nuisance of themselves. Which most people don't find particularly empowering.

Of course in Harley's case it is probably a step-up from being Joker's codependant punching bag.

🦊 (ID: a33a23)Country code: windows9x.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  358667

File: 1581294761718.png (85.93 KB, 177x218, 359.png)

aren't there plenty of movies where a male vigilante protagonist does horrible shit and it's brushed off?

I would consider the bias that if the movie is a dumb male lead action movie it's just bad or mediocre or whatever the fuck, but female lead and it's some political statement or empowerment shit, when regardless of gender it's all of those

Ika's name (ID: 32f95b)Country code: mx, country type: geoip, valid: 1  358668

File: 1581296364674.png (13.4 KB, 113x179, Screenshot_126.png)

That movie was nothing but an answer to the incel empowerment the joker movie pushed for.

Snowbell (ID: c654b9)Country code: pittsburgh.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  358669

File: 1581297105652.jpg (83.58 KB, 700x700, aQRzLyd_700b.jpg)

>>358667
>but female lead and it's some political statement or empowerment shit, when regardless of gender it's all of those

Sure. Difference is though, when the Death Wish remake came out a while back nobody tried to pass it off as anything other than simple violence porn. Now some people did decry it for being simple violence porn but you know whatevs. It had no deep meaning and nobody tried to ascribe one to it. But yet when The Brave One came out back in 2007 with Jodie Foster in the lead role and being effectively just a watered-down Death Wish starring Jodie Foster you heard nothing but how "powerful" her performance was and all that. Well there were also some people going on about how it had a deep anti-violence message or something but I am not sure those people live in the same dimension we do.

Difference is that when they make the movie with a male lead it's just a movie and we don't expect it to be anything else. But when they make the same movie but with a female lead it gets talked-up to no end and then ultimately fails to deliver. Or as has been happening recently the director(directrix?), actress or whoever will get on a platform and tell us how it's a film by women, for women. No boys allowed! But then when it fails to deliver at the box office it's somehow men's fault for not going to see it even though they literally told us not to go see it.

!FGiFL0Ecls (ID: 23fc08)Country code: windows9x.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  358670

Watch the film Monster, it's probably the most depressingly realistic portrayal of a human being's irredeemable desperation and the real world consequences, male or female.

Chewy!MUSIC.FbVY (ID: 7a2231)Country code: bug.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  358673

>>358667
Well I think part of the issue, as Snowbell illustrated, is that a lot of times these movies with female leads doing the same stuff men do get marketed as being these big feminist things. Like "THIS IS THE FEMALE VERSION OF [insert classic film here]" basically.

Chewy!MUSIC.FbVY (ID: 7a2231)Country code: bug.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  358674

>>358670
You mean the one with Charlize Theron playing a prostitute? If so, I saw that like a decade ago and I remember it being great.

Anonymous (ID: 9c5f93)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  358675

File: 1581301747802.png (647.46 KB, 777x963, 2204869.png)

It's the same issue you have with movies addressing race and other social issues.

You the movie is being written and produced by a committee of empowered wealthy old white guys pretending to "get it".

Mk17(phone)!!Trixie (ID: 3005cb)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  358676

File: 1581301868192.png (1.15 MB, 1372x1080, Screenshot_2019-03-24-00-57-04…)

>Movie that has a stong female lead that isnt just corporate virtue signaling
Aliens.

!FGiFL0Ecls (ID: 23fc08)Country code: windows9x.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  358677

>>358675
>(((white))) people

(ID: 5b8c96)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  358679

File: 1581303691541.png (507.51 KB, 1412x940, 2263457__safe_screencap_starli…)

Is it weird that I haven't seen a movie made by Hollywood in like 4 years or so?

Always makes me feel out of the loop

I swear one day I need to go a theater and just sit and watch a movie and munch on popcorn

Might lighten my mood even

Mk17(phone)!!Trixie (ID: 3005cb)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  358681

File: 1581304100051.png (348.51 KB, 649x662, 1532972894354.png)

>>358679
I enjoy going to the movies by my lonesome.
But nothing has come out that interests me in a while.

(ID: 5b8c96)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  358685

>>358681
Sadly haven't done that in years ditto on the interest part

Kinda wanted to see that Ford movie though

Chewy!MUSIC.FbVY (ID: 7a2231)Country code: bug.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  358687

>>358676
Ooh, that is a good one, now that I think of it.
>>358679
You should go, it's always a good time as long as the movie doesn't suck, and there's no shame in going to the movies alone, I've done that plenty.
It's also fairly easy to figure out what you'll enjoy seeing if you read reviews. Not necessarily look at the scores, but just skim what's generally in the film to see if it appeals to you personally.

Snowbell (ID: c654b9)Country code: pittsburgh.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  358688

File: 1581305288937.jpg (147.27 KB, 720x960, 72157222_3449177778456093_7285…)

>>358676

Impossibru! Everybody knows Captain Marvel was the first movie to have a female lead!

(ID: 5b8c96)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  358689

File: 1581305452598.png (437.97 KB, 732x676, 1573165782903.png)

>>358687
I think one day I will in the future.

I don't mind going alone

(ID: 87164f)Country code: amsterdam.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  358703

File: 1581307602889.jpg (312.25 KB, 810x1607, original.jpg)

I think the only bad thing that this craze is bringing about is that there is only one way to be a powerful woman, and I think that's a bad message.

Almost every one of these portrayals is some badass woman who is just as tough if not tougher than the men around her, etc.

That's fine and good. But it's not the ONLY way to be a strong woman. I'd like to point to Rarity for example. Rarity is a character that stands on her own as a fully feminine woman, but she owns it and dominates with it. She doesn't try to compete with men, becase she doesn't look at the world as "Men have all the the things I want." She looks at it as "I have all the things a woman wants, and men can't have." and she portrays herself as a strong character that can stand along side characters like Rainbow Dash and Applejack, which are more "traditional" strong characters. Julia Roberts in Pretty Woman is another good example.

The problem with Hollywood female empowerment is that they want to basically make women act like men. What is wrong with acting like a woman? It doesn't make you weak or inferior, but that's what these portrayals say, and sadly, Feminists think "Aww yeah. Look at this strong woman beating up all the men! Take that patriarchy!" without realizing they are sacrificing what being a woman is in order to "be like men."

I'm not saying masculine women are bad, in fact I think they can be great. Ripley and Vasquez from the alien movies are great examples of this. I'm just saying that you can be a "strong woman" without acting like a man. For example, Jeanine from the original Ghost Busters didn't need to strap on a proton pack to be a strong character. That was HER firehouse and she was the gatekeeper of that domain. She didn't even take shit from her bosses. Yeah, she spent her time answering the phone and doing her nails, but she owned that desk and was the one that wore the pants in that firehouse, and you could tell by the way she interacted with the others. The guys respected her as an equal and a valuable asset to the team even though she never wore the uniform and wore high heels to work, and that's a character type I feel we don't see much of anymore, even though any real Ghostbuster fan will tell you Jeanine was by far just as badass, if not the most badass character in the original two movies. Nothing solidifies this more than when she confronted Peck and his team off police officers and city workers. Only reason they were able to get past her was because they had an official warrant and Jeanine couldn't legally stop them, until that paper came out though she defended that firehouse like she was a mother protecting her cubs, and that's some mad respect right there. She wasn't intimidated at all by the big group of men storming in her front door.

There is more than one way to be a strong woman.
This post was edited by its author on .

Mk17(phone)!!Trixie (ID: 3005cb)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  358704

File: 1581308058804.jpg (563.83 KB, 2560x1600, sig-3765221.young_trixie_in_th…)

>>358685
Ford movie?

>>358687
That was way back in the 80s too.
I feel like movies have been pretty diverse and stuff my whole life, i think all the hullabaloo about it now is just marketing, more or less.

>>358688
No, for serious!
Is that a weapons grade waifu?

(ID: 5b8c96)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  358705

>>358704
Forget the name of it, but yeah

It's about the making of the ford GT.

(ID: 87164f)Country code: amsterdam.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  358706

File: 1581308453449.png (1011.1 KB, 1535x1088, scene22459.png)

>>358704
>That was way back in the 80s too.
>I feel like movies have been pretty diverse and stuff my whole life, i think all the hullabaloo about it now is just marketing, more or less.

Believe it or not 80's movies were the golden era of female leads. Look at Terminator 1 and 2 with Sarah Conner. There are TONS of examples of women in lead roles completely shitting all over their male costars.

I feel like today's depictions of "strong women" are so fucking pandering compared to the 80's chicks. Ripley, Vasquez, Sarah Conner and even fucking Lisa from Weird Science would fucking wreck the shit out of all these modern "female leads" and look better doing it.

Hell, look at fucking Bill & Ted's Excellent Adventure. The literal "damsels in distress" end up kicking ass on their own and then when they get together with the heroes they aren't just trophies, they join the fucking band as keyboardist and drummer.

How awesome is that?

(ID: 87164f)Country code: amsterdam.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  358718

File: 1581311555882.png (701.24 KB, 1322x946, scene20059.png)

Actually, can we take a moment to appreciate Weird Science and Lisa as the absolute fucking legend she is for a minute?

For those who haven't seen the movie or know what it's about, basically these two fuckboys hack into a super computer and use it to create "the perfect woman" which ends up creating an actual woman. This sounds like your typical setup for a hentai anime but this absolute unit of a woman takes one look at these complete losers and goes, "You know what boys? I'm gonna help you fix your lives." So instead of abandoning them because of how pathetic they are, or just becoming a completely subservient bimbo, she goes through and finds all the problems in their lives, teaches them how to stand up for themselves and get their shit together, all while being an absolute sex bomb the entire movie.

Anyone who hasn't seen this movie should.

སྤྲུལ་པSweetìe Bèlla!Tulpa65j4U (ID: b930e8)Country code: ponychan.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  358721

File: 1581313190039.jpg (99.27 KB, 720x719, C00A5686-09DA-49A6-A275-947A22…)

>>358663
The only “empowerment” I see is the amount of money the movie is going to make.

Anonymous (ID: ae9008)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  358758

File: 1581324036553.png (481.88 KB, 807x472, screen-shot-2017-07-12-at-10-1…)

>>358706
>I feel like today's depictions of "strong women" are so fucking pandering compared to the 80's chicks. Ripley, Vasquez, Sarah Conner and even fucking Lisa from Weird Science would fucking wreck the shit out of all these modern "female leads" and look better doing it.

At least we have Furiosa.

!FGiFL0Ecls (ID: dc65d3)Country code: windows9x.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  358759

File: 1581325048721.gif (203.68 KB, 370x300, BaggySpitefulCrocodileskink-ma…)

>>358758
imagine if halfway through Die Hard, john McClane met a buff snarky woman that beats him up, then starts doing everything cool for him. Wouldn't that be better?

Maroon Auburn!QEUQfdPtTM (ID: b340c0)Country code: gb, country type: geoip, valid: 1  358760

File: 1581331144277.jpg (27.74 KB, 413x395, Morrowind_6ceb09_5604530.jpg)

>>358759

Bonus points it said women is Black, bald and has a catchy yet cringeworthy catchphrase

Urda (ID: 440bbd)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  358761

File: 1581332098568.jpg (93.42 KB, 1280x720, BAD4F2E2-2424-426D-9CA0-16992A…)

>>358760
Lad you know some strange Birds.

Chewy (ID: 7a2231)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  358770

>>358703
>The problem with Hollywood female empowerment is that they want to basically make women act like men.

This is kind of what I was getting at. They want women to be "badass" like men are BUT without the negative traits that make those iconic male characters feel like real people and not just Gary Stus.

Also damn a Toybox take I agree with, stars must have aligned or something. :p
This post was edited by its author on .

Mk17(phone)!!Trixie (ID: 3005cb)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  358773

File: 1581342622932.png (1.16 MB, 5000x4510, vector__640___vinyl_scratch__5…)

>>358706
>>358770
Well of course they are like men, if they were like women, that would be sexist.
Which is a sexist statement i assume.
There is no winning, whatever you think is wrong.
This is part of why i just dont watch tv and movies anymore, too complicated, never know when i might accedently wrong think.
>>358705
Like a documentary?
That sounds pretty good.

We need more theatrical documentaries.
This post was edited by its author on .

Snowbell (ID: ac658e)Country code: pittsburgh.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  358781

File: 1581345088623.png (705.93 KB, 1000x500, Ripley-2.png)

Mk17(phone)!!Trixie (ID: 3005cb)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  358786

File: 1581346309440.png (661.31 KB, 1320x1080, Screenshot_2019-03-24-01-45-16…)

>>358781
Do they make a Weyland-Jennings waifu patch?

Shiny Puppy (Element of Fleas) (ID: 25d9ad)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  358793

File: 1581348880306.jpg (60.3 KB, 600x480, 132125527458.jpg)

Are we going for female empowerment or general lady badassery?
Would Gamora and Captain Marvel fall into the empowerment business?

I'll be the first to admit I find the tougher more athletic women a lot more attractive than twigs. (Maybe that's why I'm with a guy, who even knows) Have a lady be awesome on their own merits and don't force the issue. That seems to be a lot of what ruins those movies. I don't care what the main character is, so long as they're awesome. Trying too hard simply turns them into a caricature and that's not really helpful for anyone.

Samus, Lara Croft, Dark Angel, Jessica Jones, etc. They have the "sex appeal" of being females, but their intrigue is that they were actually neat characters already.

Mk17(phone)!!Trixie (ID: 3005cb)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  358796

Snowbell (ID: ac658e)Country code: pittsburgh.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  358797

File: 1581350103446.jpg (208.44 KB, 870x1236, 3.jpg)

>>358786

Probably not.

>>358793
>Have a lady be awesome on their own merits and don't force the issue. That seems to be a lot of what ruins those movies. I don't care what the main character is, so long as they're awesome. Trying too hard simply turns them into a caricature and that's not really helpful for anyone.

Yep, that's the problem alright, that and poisoning the well by telling people how they think and feel about it before the movie even hits theaters.
I too like women who are strong, skilled and competent but a lot of hollywood doesn't seem to grasp that a women can be those things without simultaneously being an asshole or to use their terminology: Without embodying the worst traits of toxic masculinity.
Now it wasn't always that way. In the example I used above The Brave One they avoided her having to go out and hunt down criminals for sake of revenge by instead just of having be at places where criminals are so she has a chance to execute them. Like she literally just stumbles upon a convenience store robbery, a pack of would-be rapists on the subway and some sort human trafficking organization all in swift succession. Which has to be either the best or worst luck in the universe. Of course by doing it that way they removed most of her agency which rather softens the impact of the whole revenge narrative. But whatevs.

Mk17(phone)!!Trixie (ID: 3005cb)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  358798

File: 1581350233523.jpg (85.64 KB, 1000x750, Waylon-Jennings.jpg)

>>358797
Well thats fucking gay.

Chewy!MUSIC.FbVY (ID: 7a2231)Country code: bug.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  358806

File: 1581351703320.jpg (81 KB, 259x383, yuck.jpg)

>>358796
>Frozen
>Twilight
>Lucy
>The Fault In Our Stars

Mk17(phone)!!Trixie (ID: 3005cb)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  358808

File: 1581352159189.png (278.26 KB, 900x733, vinyl_scratch_chillin___by_the…)

>>358806
Dont like those movies?
I didn't make the list.

🦊 (ID: a33a23)Country code: windows9x.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  358810

File: 1581352460240.png (47.02 KB, 191x213, 336.png)

>>358703
>>358770
>The problem with Hollywood female empowerment is that they want to basically make women act like men.
t-that's the point..? to dispel the monopoly of masculinity for men only?

>>358773
>Well of course they are like men, if they were like women, that would be sexist.
>Which is a sexist statement i assume.
it's nice that you are self aware

>There is no winning, whatever you think is wrong.

I mean you literally just described the issue so the conclusion is not too far off

Chewy!MUSIC.FbVY (ID: 7a2231)Country code: bug.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  358814

>>358808
Yeah they're not very good.

Mk17(phone)!!Trixie (ID: 3005cb)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  358820

File: 1581357050846.png (983.85 KB, 1223x945, Screenshot_2019-03-24-00-53-57…)

>>358810
My conclusion is that since no matter how a woman is portrayed in a film, someone is going to complain that its not "right" so its not something woth giving much merit to.
Women have been portrayed in flims, 1000s of different ways, which makes sense since there are literally billions of different woman who all have their own personality, some of them are strong, some weak, some heros, some villains, ect.
Authors should just write their characters the way they want, and people can like or dislike it.
It's not really a problem, people just love an excuse to dust off the ol pitch fork.
This post was edited by its author on .

Snowbell (ID: ac658e)Country code: pittsburgh.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  358881

File: 1581384847965.png (196.48 KB, 882x818, 77245706_p0.png)

>>358810
>t-that's the point..? to dispel the monopoly of masculinity for men only?

Can I dispel the monopoly on femininity by badly* play-acting female stereotypes then?
This post was edited by its author on .

🦊 (ID: a33a23)Country code: windows9x.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  358883

File: 1581385911270.png (282.87 KB, 384x320, x4.PNG)

>>358881
WE 👏 NEED 👏 MORE 👏 STRAIGHT 👏 TWINKS 👏 IN 👏 CINEMA

!SATSUkIQg2 (ID: e13ee8)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  358885

>>358883
Why the fuck do you get so vehement on the pettiest little things? How can you not see why you get called a team-player?

Snowbell (ID: bfc877)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  358886

File: 1581387768973.jpg (707.33 KB, 1247x1486, 3e144a069b2dc31080e43cc15eba68…)

>>358883

That's racist.

(ID: 24b85c)Country code: amsterdam.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  358887

File: 1581388267260.png (555.28 KB, 842x1088, scene18175.png)

>>358810
>t-that's the point..? to dispel the monopoly of masculinity for men only?

The entire problem is that this reinforces the idea that masculinity has more inherent value than femininity.

The two should have equal value. It shouldn't be that women have to strive to claim right over masculinity becase femininity is seen as inferior or worthless.

!FGiFL0Ecls (ID: 1ce177)Country code: windows9x.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  358888

File: 1581388291664.jpg (28.43 KB, 600x338, 1579832139543.jpg)

>>358810
I don't want movies about boring masculine women, I want movies about cool feminine women that can kick my ass.

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>>358888
You're going to be hard pressed to find any main-line movies that cater to femdom.

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>>358885
I don't understand the question

>>358886
okay

>>358887
true
it's just weird when men deliver both and women deliver the other exclusively

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>>358891
It's a "grass is greener" scenario. Hardcore feminists believe men have everything good and want it for themselves. In the process they disregard all the good things they already have, and that is the primary reason I can't support feminism.

In a nutshell, Feminists hate women, more or less.

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>>358889
My first rated R movie was Kill Bill, one of the best days of my life.

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>>358892
I'm sorry you are misguided

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>>358895
How so?

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>>358898
I don't think any of that is true

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>>358900
How is it not? Look at what modern feminists try to do. They want to have all the things men have and the only thing they prance around like they own it vaginal bleeding and breast feeding.

They HATE anything that would be considered traditionally feminine and instead want to adopt everything masculine.

They don't hate "women" they just hate everything associated with being a woman, unless it's something they can pretend is something that makes them tough, like suffering through periods.
This post was edited by its author on .

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>>358902
I'm pretty sure that women do not enjoy suffering through periods.

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>>358906
No, they don't. However it's something they have that men don't so they cling to it like it's a badge of honor.

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Anyway, "wanting everything that men have" is a really shitty way of saying they want equal access to the freedom of individual opportunity and expression that men have always had throughout human history, instead of fulfilling the same exact role that all women were once expected to.

There's nothing inherently masculine about being anything other than a housewife in a sundress. This is just as annoying as when someone says a black person is pretending to be white because they don't speak with a ghetto accent.

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>>358908
>freedom of individual opportunity and expression that men have always had throughout human history

Go outside in makeup and a dress and tell me how it goes.

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>>358909
I'll be raped until I'm more cum than boy

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>>358910
More like you'll be beaten to a pulp a and left bleeding on the sidewalk.

The point is, women have been able to walk around wearing whatever they want, be it a skirt, pants, overalls, etc. They can also act any way they choose. No one cares if a woman acts incredibly girly or incredibly masculine. Women are allowed to do whatever they want socially and people pretty much just accept it.

You break from stereotypical masculine tendencies as a male, you are immediately considered either a homosexual, ostracized from most, if not all social circles, or just straight ridiculed, or even physically assaulted.

Yet you sit here and say that men have more freedom to express themselves? Really?

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>>358902
and what's a bad thing that feminists are trying to have that they shouldn't?

yeah, I'd hate it too if I wasn't taken seriously because I wasn't a man and told to get back to the kitchen

I already have all the things men have and I haven't experienced any of those things that one could pretend like makes them tough

>>358913
you know feminism goes both ways, right?

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>>358916
>and what's a bad thing that feminists are trying to have that they shouldn't?

That's not what I'm getting at. I'm not saying women shouldn't have the same things or opportunities. They just need to stop acting like those things or opportunities are more valuable than their own.

>you know feminism goes both ways, right?

Then why is it called feminism?
This post was edited by its author on .

Tracer Bullet (ID: f92cb6)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  358920

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>>358918
>Then why is it called feminism?
Because a woman came up with the name.

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>>358913
>The point is, women have been able to walk around wearing whatever they want, be it a skirt, pants, overalls, etc
they literally weren't allowed to wear pants without being arrested until feminism changed that, holy shit. If men want to wear dresses then maybe they should all march to Washington a couple times.
>No one cares if a woman acts incredibly girly or incredibly masculine
Yes they do, you don't think how you behave affects how you're treated?
>You break from stereotypical masculine tendencies as a male, you are immediately considered either a homosexual, ostracized from most, if not all social circles, or just straight ridiculed, or even physically assaulted
A man behaving femininely is seen differently from a woman behaving manly because masculinity is idealized and femininity is considered a weak inferior role for women and boys who failed at being men. Yeah, I'm sure women feel really good about that.

>>358916
>>358918
The actual negative of feminism is that it's about feminizing men. Not in a sexy way, but literally claiming that all of men's unique problems ought to be solved by men thinking, feeling, and acting more femininely while hiding their true feelings that women disapprove of, like being sad or frustrated. But hey, guess what? Behaving the way feminism wants you to behave (backing down from confrontation, making room for women, acting like a beta cucklord in general) makes you look like a fucking loser in straight women's eyes, so most men aren't going to do it.

Imagine if I told women that all of their problems would be solved by them thinking, feeling, and acting more manly, and then expecting women to thank me for solving all of their stupid girly problems with my giant man brain, even though 99% of them don't want to even consider my suggestion.

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>>358918
yeah okay
what constitutes as "acting like those things or opportunities are more valuable than their own"?

>Then why is it called feminism?

why not? historical reasons, it's still more focused on improving women's conditions
would allsexism be better?

>>358926
tbh I've no idea what you're on about

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>>358927
Another big win for Dodger, what a humiliating scoreboard for the Foxanon fans watching at home!

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>>358926
>they literally weren't allowed to wear pants without being arrested until feminism changed that, holy shit. If men want to wear dresses then maybe they should all march to Washington a couple times.

I'm not saying that is bad. I've also made a distinction between modern feminism and traditional feminism.

>>358926
>A man behaving femininely is seen differently from a woman behaving manly because masculinity is idealized and femininity is considered a weak inferior role for women and boys who failed at being men. Yeah, I'm sure women feel really good about that.

That's exactly my fucking point. Femininity should not be viewed as weak or as a failure, and modern feminists wanting to abandon the ship of femininity just reinforces the idea that it's a sign of weakness or failure, and that is not cool.

>>358927
>what constitutes as "acting like those things or opportunities are more valuable than their own"?

Basically throwing a shit fit at anyone or anything that seems traditionally feminine or emphasizes that a woman is a woman.

>>358927
>would allsexism be better?

How about humanism?

Also:
>it's still more focused on improving women's conditions
How is that a two way street? Unless you're talking about one of those streets that has like 4 lanes going one way and only one way going the other.

!SATSUkIQg2 (ID: e13ee8)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  358931

>>358926
>Imagine if I told women that all of their problems would be solved by them thinking, feeling, and acting more manly, and then expecting women to thank me for solving all of their stupid girly problems with my giant man brain, even though 99% of them don't want to even consider my suggestion.

unironic good idea

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>>358929
Do you think that all historic women and feminine men of the past were just too stupid to make traditional femininity more respectable? You think they should have tried harder, those lazy slags?

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>>358934
No. I'm saying that we as a society need to stop treating femininity like a bad word, and it doesn't help that Feminists, the ones who are supposed to be the one championing for females, are doing so by trying to throw away their femininity like it's a set of chains.

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>>358936
A lot of it is, yes. The good parts are still present in society, you just can't expect all women to pursue both serious careers AND a family at the same time when they face observable discrimination in the workplace for getting pregnant.

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>>358937
What does this have to do with my previous post in any capacity?

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>>358929
>Basically throwing a shit fit at anyone or anything that seems traditionally feminine or emphasizes that a woman is a woman.
that's too vague
what's the context?
that could be good or bad

>How about humanism?

sorry, that's taken
here's a suggested name
bigdickism123

>How is that a two way street? Unless you're talking about one of those streets that has like 4 lanes going one way and only one way going the other.

well if there's a gap between the sexes, how's that gonna close if you improve both equally?

>>358931
pls respond

>>358928
stop confusing me

!SATSUkIQg2 (ID: e13ee8)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  358940

>>358937
To my understanding, lack of a paid maternity leave is the last thing all remaining pay gap hinges upon.
But it also raises the question of whether childless and low-income men really want to have larger portions of their income taxed away in order to sustain this institution, especially if lower-income men are far more likely to stay childless themselves in the first place.

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>>358939
>that's too vague
>what's the context?
>that could be good or bad

Let's take Brie Larson as Captain Marvel for example. Her insistence on having an outfit that showed NO signs of her femininity just shows she's ashamed of it. That's not a step on the right direction.

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>>358938
You're using a very narrow, very specific definition of femininity that ignores most of its meaning. It's really annoying me.
>>358939
Stop dodging me! You are not the Dodger!
>>358940
It's not just about lack of paid maternity leave, it's also about being taken less seriously and being considered for fewer jobs/promotions when you get pregnant.

Why should paid pregnancy leave come out of our tax dollars? Your employer should pay for it.

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>>358945
>You're using a very narrow, very specific definition of femininity that ignores most of its meaning. It's really annoying me.

The fact that I see woman as more than just something that can spit out babies is me not understanding the meaning of femininity?

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>>358943
This is Captain Marvel in the comics. She is wearing a mask that makes her look far more masculine than Brie Larson. You can tell she's a woman because of her awesome rockin' tits and ass, but Brie doesn't have either of those things, and she's no less a woman because of it.

>>358947
Pathetic

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>>358949
Answer the question.

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>>358940
do you sniff glue or something?
why would the taxes of low income people rise if companies were forced to pay maternity leave?
the pay gap is a description of systematic inequality i.e. societial pressures push men into better paying positions

>>358943
oh
my
god
feminism IS cancer
femininity is big womanly bosom and fat ass on display for all the men to fantasize about and oogle over

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>>358950
My answer is no, and my reasoning is that your very interpretation of this conversation is entirely detached from reality and appears to paint your argument as the reincarnation of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, when in fact you couldn't even understand the words you copied and pasted from my accusation.

Now tell me about how Brie Larson is rejecting her uterus or whatever.

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>>358951
>oh
>my
>god
>feminism IS cancer
>femininity is big womanly bosom and fat ass on display for all the men to fantasize about and oogle over

Yes, apparently. But big hulking shirtless men with huge muscles is okay because that's what men are supposed to look like, right?

Get the fuck over yourself.

>>358952
The original Captain Marvel was male, and the original Ms Marvel looked like this. Ms Marvel became Captain Marvel after the fact and that's when the costume changed.

To look more like the original Captain Marvel.

Who was male.

!SATSUkIQg2 (ID: e13ee8)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  358954

>>358945
>It's not just about lack of paid maternity leave, it's also about being taken less seriously and being considered for fewer jobs/promotions when you get pregnant.

You wouldn't be taken less seriously while pregnant if you could still be as materially capable as a non-pregnant person while pregnant. There are rational profit-maximizing reasons companies make decisions like this, it can't all just be aggregated prejudice.

We're in a social atmosphere where the antithesis of this kind of prejudiced is being pushed and argued frequently enough that we should subconsciously believe it by now, so blaming apparently-prejudiced large-scale social decisions on irrational personal bias doesn't make much sense anymore.


>Why should paid pregnancy leave come out of our tax dollars? Your employer should pay for it.


I could agree, but they'd then avoid paying for it. By being more hesitant to promote a female worker to a higher-paying position for the same amount of achievement, or by allocating them to otherwise lower-paying positions, because the chance of becoming pregnant and taking time off the job is a risk that they compensate for by spending as little as possible on the risk employee.

A young woman who could become pregnant is the equivalent of a man who isn't currently disabled but has an obvious body marker that he could become disabled any day. Anti-discrimination mentalities want to give both of these people equal opportunities, but a profit-oriented entity is bound to minimize the costs of such an individual in any way they can, in the same way they would with a disabled person they had to hire.

That, to my understanding, is the source of wage/earnings gaps. The inherent risk/cost of possible pregnancy has to be offloaded somewhere, and it inevitably seeps out in the form of net lower earnings by individuals of the same skill level.

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>>358953
The male Captain Marvel is a DC character who abandoned the name for obvious copyright reasons. Shazam is a better name for him anyway.

OG Miss Marvel looks too much like Psylocke

>>358954
We exist in a world where women NEED equality in the workplace, and we as a society NEED them to start families. The solution is to stop discriminating against women who start families in the workplace, not to try and justify our discrimination.

!SATSUkIQg2 (ID: e13ee8)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  358956

>>358951
>do you sniff glue or something?
>why would the taxes of low income people rise if companies were forced to pay maternity leave?

If it's the company that's forced to front the bill, it's either going to result in a net fewer hires or they're just going to find covert ways to give women lower-paying positions to offset the losses of paying their maternity leave. Companies can't materialize money from nowhere.

!SATSUkIQg2 (ID: e13ee8)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  358957

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>>358955
>We exist in a world where women NEED equality in the workplace, and we as a society NEED them to start families.
> we as a society NEED them to start families.

I really, really question that.

If you don't have farmers, you don't have food, and everyone dies. If you don't have soldiers, you get invaded, and everyone dies or becomes slaves.

But if no one breeds?

The old die eventually, whether or not anyone replaces them, so who gives a shit about starting more families? I won't be around to see the schmucks who come two generations after me, so fuck them.
I can still live a happy and fulfilling life with no demonspawn of my own. Zoomers like to say Boomers supported massively decadent personal lives by "undermining the future for their posterity," so why the hell shouldn't we do the same?

When you die, the world ends.

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>>358957
>LMAO JUST PAY FOR ABORTIONS WITH TAX DOLLARS AND IMPORT IMMIGRANTS FOR LABOR, MUCH BETTER FOR COUNTRY THAN WHITE FAMILIES LOOOOOOOOOL

HAVING KIDS MAKES THE COUNTRY OBJECTIVELY BETTER, I'M SORRY YOU DON'T GET ALONG WITH THEM BUT YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE TO TAKE ONE FOR THE TEAM MY GOOD JEWESS.

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>>358953
>Yes, apparently. But big hulking shirtless men with huge muscles is okay because that's what men are supposed to look like, right?
which is a male power fantasy, there's a common link here if you bother to think about it

and I'll be heading to bed with a victory over these reactionary ABC dialogue trees
cya and I hope you change your mind

>>358954
>>358956
and the solution is...
>drumroll
men get maternity leave too

(ID: b31542)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  358961

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>>358955
My point is that there is nothing wrong with EITHER depiction of the character. The problem is when people say that characters like Ms Marvel are 'problematic' yet characters like Larson's version of Captain Marvel are 'progressive'.

The problem with Larson's depiction of Captain Marvel was not lack of skin, lack of big tits, or lack of ass. The problem with her depiction of it was her insistence that her costume SPECIFICALLY downplay her feminine features on purpose. She specifically had the costume designers rework her costume to make her chest and ass flatter, to the point where even Captain America has a more defined ass than she does.

And this isn't just about 'tits and ass, lol' it's about the fact that there is nothing shameful about the female body, regardless of what shape it's in. The fact that she purposely tried to change her body shape to be more like a board shows me that she's ashamed of even having a female body to begin with.

You don't see people like Thor or Hulk going, "Hm... yeah. Can you make my outfit more blocky? I don't want too much definition of my abs or arms, cause it might detract from the character."

No, you don't see that, because apparently if you define a masculine form it's not considered sexualization, but if you define a feminine form it is, for some reason.

YAY BEING FAIR AND PROGRESSIVE, RIGHT?

!SATSUkIQg2 (ID: e13ee8)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  358962

>>358959
Ahh, but I've advocated closed-borders too.

We could be like Japan and have the robots do our bidding without causing serious workforce problems, except less horribly dense and cluttered.

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>>358961
I would argue that looking exactly like another sex object superhero on your roster with a color swap is a pretty big flaw in the classic Miss Marvel design. It's not really a big deal, it's not like Psylocke is in the Avengers movies or anything, but I like the new Carol.

>She specifically had the costume designers rework her costume to make her chest and ass flatter, to the point where even Captain America has a more defined ass than she does.

She doesn't have a very flattering body in real life either, not trying to be mean but she probably didn't want to show off because there wasn't much to show. And also because yeah, every superhero shouldn't be expected to.

Modesty is a pretty significant and virtuous aspect of traditional femininity too...

I don't think the women of MCU are sexy, and I'd probably care more about the movies if they were. But like, yknow, whatever. I can just watch something else.

>>358962
Japan is full of suicidal incels

(ID: b31542)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  358964

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>>358963
I think my main beef is that feminists just tend to treat any macho chick like they are a hero but any more traditionally feminine person, who may actually enjoy makeup or high heels or dresses as a 'dirty slut that is just catering to the patriarchy'. The fact that they think that women should only be allowed to act one way is the part that pisses me off.

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>>358964
That's because those women are ugly and straight. You see the same type of bitching from incel communities. Lesbian/sex positive feminists probably love OG Miss Marvel.

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>>358965
We shouldn't be supporting that though.

If you want to be plain and respected just for your skills or attitude, that's fine.

If you want to be sexy and flashy and have people fawn over your looks, that's fine too.

There's nothing wrong with either of those, but feminists adore the first and hate the second.

!SATSUkIQg2 (ID: e13ee8)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  358970

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>>358963
Social issues like that I always saw as the inevitable result of becoming too densely packed. Idk.

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>>358967
Ok but not all feminists believe that, you're generalizing feminists as sex-hating cunts just like some people generalize all male nerds as misogynist incels.

>>358970
We shouldn't be Japan, we should be America but better.
This post was edited by its author on .

!SATSUkIQg2 (ID: e13ee8)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  358977

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>>358971
How do you think we're going to handle the problem of automation replacing most jobs until the majority of the population is unemployable by no fault of their own, and the owner class now has an incentive to forcibly exterminate this population they now have no use for?

Mac was worried about this and it's my main concern here. Not trying to be belligerent, just curious.

Anonymous (ID: 064faf)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  358980

!FGiFL0Ecls seems like one of those guys that is a "feminist ally" that types manifestos the moment they "friendzone" him.

!SATSUkIQg2 (ID: e13ee8)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  358985

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>>358980
Highly doubt that's a fair characterization.
This post was edited by its author on .

(ID: b31542)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  359001

File: 1581402540177.png (500.45 KB, 1008x1088, scene27595.png)

>>358977
>How do you think we're going to handle the problem of automation replacing most jobs until the majority of the population is unemployable by no fault of their own, and the owner class now has an incentive to forcibly exterminate this population they now have no use for?

The very fact you think this is an actual concern shows you have no idea how people function.

!SATSUkIQg2 (ID: e13ee8)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  359006

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>>359001
Mac voiced this idea first and that's why I believed it. He's a lot smarter than I.
It seems that even when I defer to the opinion of someone whose insights I trust, it ends with the conjuring of crazy ideas.

But I'd prefer a crazy idea to agnosticism or blind optimism any old day.
At least when it doesn't trigger my superstitious side.

(ID: b31542)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  359008

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>>359006
No offense to Mac, but he grew up incredibly isolated and sheltered by a family that taught him to be paranoid of everyone and everything.

He's not exactly the best person to go to for insightful advice on how the world functions.

!FGiFL0Ecls (ID: 1ce177)Country code: windows9x.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  359009

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>>358977
We're eventually going to have to adopt universal basic income. Fuck unskilled labor, it's never going to be America's niche, we need to get over it and double down on what we're good at.

(ID: b31542)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  359010

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>>359009
>We're eventually going to have to adopt universal basic income.

The primary problem with this is that no one will bother to work at that point. Why work when you don't have to?

(ID: 8899d9)Country code: tux.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  359011

>>359009
Diabeties and fast food is not something you want to produce as a staple of excellence

!FGiFL0Ecls (ID: 1ce177)Country code: windows9x.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  359012

>>359010
You forgot to mention the problem

(ID: b31542)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  359014

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>>359012
If nobody works, nothing gets done. No more food. No more utilities. No more functioning society. No garbage men. No sewer technicians. No cashiers, which means no stores. No stores means no products, no products means no economy, no economy means no money, no money means no universal income and no society.

This is common sense.

!FGiFL0Ecls (ID: 1ce177)Country code: windows9x.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  359015

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>>359014
Yeah I guess everyone in America just wants to be at the bottom of the socioeconomic ladder. Americans wouldn't even wipe their asses if they weren't required to for work.

!SATSUkIQg2 (ID: e13ee8)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  359016

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>>359014
Pre-automation, yes.

In the 2000s you'd hear schoolkids gossip about how profitable it actually was to be a garbage man. Now when the bots snatch these simple tasks away we'll have a problem.


And none of the Renaissance scientists got paid for their little experiments. They only made the discoveries they did because they were richies with all their needs met, easy access to all the materials they needed for their passion projects, and had intrinsic motivation.

Now look what revolutions their actions bestowed on the world. It's a perfect foreshadowing of post-scarcity motivation.
This post was edited by its author on .

(ID: 2ebbce)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  359033

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>>359015
>Yeah I guess everyone in America just wants to be at the bottom of the socioeconomic ladder. Americans wouldn't even wipe their asses if they weren't required to for work.

For the most part, yeah. This is absolutely true.

>>359016
>Pre-automation, yes.

Will you stop? We barely have the technology to make robots walk through a room without falling over. Self driving cars are still a far thing from the future, and none of this works without operators and oversight. A society where everything is automated is at least another 100 years in the future, and even then you will still have plenty of jobs that aren't going to be automated.

Your fear of automation is cringeworthy. It's not gonna happen. Stop it.

!SATSUkIQg2 (ID: e13ee8)Country code: ponychan.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  359034

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>>359033
They said a moon landing was a million years away.

!FGiFL0Ecls (ID: 1ce177)Country code: windows9x.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  359035

File: 1581408495724.jpg (38.63 KB, 650x650, himouto-umaru-chan-trading-fig…)

Snowbell (ID: bfc877)Country code: pittsburgh.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  359045

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>>358960
>which is a male power fantasy

Ah yes, the old saw that the portrayal of beautiful women exists only to shame women who don't measure up. While any portrayal of strong, powerful men exists only to vicariously stroke the egos of men who don't measure up.

Because clearly women are not sentient living being with their own thoughts, feelings, emotions and imaginations but they are instead something more akin to furniture. They do not act, they are merely acted upon. Usually by men. Even those few women with some semblance of self-awareness are still so mentally weak that upon seeing a fictional depiction of a strong, beautiful woman it serves only to break what little spirit she has, reminding her that she is fat, dumb, ugly, unloved and unlovable and always will be so.

Meanwhile men are so mentally and emotionally virile that they can view even the most unrealistic portrayal of the "male power fantasy" and say "Yes! that is me! I am capable of that. NO! I AM THAT!"

If y'all think this is how the world be it ain't no wonder the men rule it.

Mk17(phone)!!Trixie (ID: 6692b6)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  359052

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>>359045
>instead something more akin to furniture.
>

Anonymous (ID: d0cb24)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  359059

>>358675
Because white people can't understand the issues of race am I right?

🦊 (ID: a33a23)Country code: windows9x.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  359060

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>>359045
we are talking about comic book characters here

>>359059
I mean... you definitely gain something from going through it yourself

Anonymous (ID: d0cb24)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  359064

>>359060

And you need to be an artist to understand art.

🦊 (ID: a33a23)Country code: windows9x.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  359067

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>>359064
I don't think that argument flies here because of two reasons
1. it still gives you an added understanding or perspective if you're an artist yourself
2. anyone can experience art and get well versed in it, even if they're not an artist themselves

Anonymous (ID: d0cb24)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  359075

>>359067
Are you suggesting that empathy and sympathy aren't valid concepts?

🦊 (ID: a33a23)Country code: windows9x.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  359080

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>>359075
no, I'm saying that the victims of race issues have more than just that

Donald Trump (ID: d0cb24)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  359082

>>359080
Really? Because it sounds like you were just saying that unless you have literally experienced specifically racial prejudice that you don't know what racism is and can't even imagine it.

🦊 (ID: a33a23)Country code: windows9x.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  359094

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>>359082
well, glad to clear things up for you

Donald Trump (ID: d0cb24)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  359098

>>359094
Except you're wrong.

🦊 (ID: a33a23)Country code: windows9x.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  359102

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>>359098
wrong about what I said or wrong about the issue?

Snowbell (ID: bfc877)Country code: pittsburgh.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  359121

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>>359060

Irrelevant! The mere implication that a "male power fantasy" is somehow a bad thing by default is dumb.

!XSAILBoatg (ID: 068d0c)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  359124

It was so empowering, that nobody bothered to see it (33M domestic). Somehow, men got blamed for not wanting to see a girl-power movie, even though more men saw it than women (where have I heard this before...). Then they dropped all woke pretense by literally changing the cringey-ass name.

🦊 (ID: a33a23)Country code: windows9x.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  359129

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>>359121
I don't think I implied that

Anonymous (ID: 002110)Country code: cia.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  359775

File: 1581651383572.jpg (26.48 KB, 250x291, nyan.jpg)

I went to see the movie yesterday with my little sister, who is a raging DC comics fan. I went expecting trash but instead got an entertaining music.
Now: Does it has extremely forced female-empowerment subtexts and messages? Indeed it does. In fact, every male character in the movie was an absolute ASS in every way except for the sandwich salesman and maybe the fathers of two of the main cast. There was NO redeeming relevant male, and it really shows you the kind of mentality they went in with this movie.
It is absolute and utter female-empowerment made only to sell, but it is also a fun movie with actually nice jokes and good visual images. It also had action film elements.
Besides the female-empowerment subtext, it also does not really understand its main character: Harley Quinn. She is one female that should not have been used for this. Her original design IS supposed to represent toxic relationships. Why not use Wonder Woman for female empowerment? That's what she was made for.
Also HUGE missed opportunity on revealing that Bruce the hyena was female. Remember how female hyenas have pseudo-penises? They could have made a joke with that but also hammer down how hyenas live in matriarchal societies. HUGE missed feminist icon.
I give it a 3/5 in my scale.
My final opinions: Enjoyable, if a bit on-the-nose with the female empowerment.

----
To answer the other question in OP: I do not have any female-empowerment films, because frankly I do not feel they are needed. Females shouldn't be token, but characters. Like in Terminator or Alien.

Anonymous (ID: 14dc17)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  359890

>>359775
>Remember how female hyenas have pseudo-penises
Oh, I forgot about that!

From Wikipedia:
>Subordinate females lick the clitorises of higher-ranked females as a sign of submission and obedience, but females also lick each other's clitorises as a greeting or to strengthen social bonds; in contrast, while all males lick the clitorises of dominant females, the females will not lick the penises of males because males are considered to be of lowest rank.

Whelp!tEfVeritas (ID: edab5d)Country code: goggles.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  360151

File: 1581750399663.jpg (35.66 KB, 311x445, Invoke Prejudice.jpg)

Spitting hot take coming in:

I think there's an idea pushed by media that a "strong woman" needs to be assertive to the point of being abrasive, and that this is ultimately a problem, because it leads to young girls and women starting to act that way and then, when they inevitably get told to stop acting like that, complain that men are allowed to, and this is sexist.

It leads to those girls and women feeling like they're victims of misogyny because men are allowed to be loud and assertive, while they try to do the same and get shut down.The thing is, when they act that way, they end up doing so in a way that's just, frankly, unpleasant. They don't understand how to act assertive without being abrasive. You see men doing that too, and they get shut down in a similar fashion, but those aren't the ones that these people are comparing themselves to.

That's not to say sexism doesn't exist - it obviously still does, and both ways at that. However, with society changing and a lot of traditional things that people build their identity around starting to break down - gender, nationality, etc. - some women are finding that they want to be in charge, but since they were raised with traditional feminine stereotypes in mind, they don't know how to do it right, and they end up making asses of themselves in the process, and then wonder where it all went wrong, before inevitably blaming sexism, because "I did all the right things!"

I've met, and worked with women that are able to be leaders, skilled, and confident. There are plenty of them out there. But those people are too self-confident to make for a good marketing demographic. Movies like this are about selling a power fantasy to girls and women, one in which they get to be a cool, crazy alpha bitch, and you simply can't sell that to someone who's already found and are happy with themself. Gotta go for the insecure people.

!SATSUkIQg2 (ID: e13ee8)Country code: ponychan.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  360203

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>>360151
What if the far greater attractive allure women have over men just by virtue of existing, that men don't necessarily have themselves, is already a form of soft counter-power?

In the past, it was expected that males have executive power and that would be their allure, and that's still their allure, because apparently it's the only thing women are drawn to anyway.

But now, if you have an innate allure and some executive power, how can a man possibly rival that? You just don't see women aggressively drooling over anything vaguely broad-chested, in the same way men aggressively salivate over anything vaguely hourglass-shaped. And for a lot of men, even "hourglass-shaped" isn't a basic requirement, you don't even have to maintain your body at all to be attractive to a lot of men, you just have to be female at all.
But you don't see the female preference changing to suit environs, just like the male can, you see it continuing to chase power. You see it continuing to squat on its monopoly as a Selector rather than Selected, or, weirdly enough, you see a rate of female homosexuality increasing far more rapidly than male.

It's almost like an emergent monopoly, but bizarrely you're insinuated as some oppressor for criticizing it.
I don't think you can rightfully force anyone's preferences to change, but the fact is that males have been more willing to adjust their preferences to be realistic than females, and are more willing to let go of the type of privilege conferred by their gender than are females. Males were partially talked into complying with the feminism thing, it wasn't all beating them into submission. So if you can encourage men to adjust their behavior to be more equitable and they comply, then you shouldn't be shamed and called an oppressor for encouraging women to change theirs as well.

But the setup isn't even something you're allowed to criticize, because the moment you speak in these terms, a feminist who probably benefits from these trends and attacks you with ad-homs and calls you an incel terrorist; in effect, turning the same masculine expectation they claimed to subvert, as a way to silence you.
This casts the mythology of "toxic masculinity" being the product of powerful men, not powerful women, in a whole different light, as it suggests that men would be more incentivized to seek emotional support from each other than from women, rather than using masculinity to justify in-fighting, which hurts them as a whole. In this light, male in-fighting is less self-interested and more a catering to the other gender, since it feeds into their preference for selecting against the weakest men. Males who realize this would never be content to perpetuate this cycle, as it keeps their sex in a defensive position, rather than one of equal bargaining with the other.

So the notion of masculinity as a product of selfish male ambition, rather than a defensive position the other sex forces them into as genetic Selectees, makes no sense. Males, in fact, do not necessarily want to be "masculine," they were beaten into it, which explains why females don't care to emulate it: it is in fact a strenuous standard for any person to meet, rather than an empowering privilege to express.


If this setup is grounded in asymmetry, one can't defend it while saying they want equality.


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