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File: 1578015639822.jpg (187.63 KB, 1280x720, contra.jpg)

Anonymous (ID: 9e80b4)Country code: ponychan.png, country type: customflag, valid:   351563

Natalie did nothing wrong

Anonymous (ID: 762090)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  351587

I'm not anti-Natalie either.

🦊 (ID: a734da)Country code: windows9x.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  351591

File: 1578020419598.png (36.23 KB, 167x173, 302.PNG)

did? she dead or something?

is it too much to ask for some sort of foundation on what this something is that could be considered wrong?

instead of being all like "knowers know"

Anonymous (ID: 9e80b4)Country code: ponychan.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  351603

>>351591
Canceling | ContraPoints
She enraged the twitter mob

Anonymous (ID: 3d4df0)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  351609

Edelweiss !Metta5sWWk (ID: 9a9b2e)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  351645

>>351591
Genuinely, yes, the cancelling of contrapoints is really fucking complicated, which is partially why Natalie's response video is a feature-length saga. Part of the reason it got so out of hand is the online process of removing context and simplifying.

After watching Cancelling, my conclusion as a trans woman in THE DISCOURSE is that everything sucks and we live in hell -- go grab a cheap bottle of wine and forget about today's new disappointments.

Anonymous (ID: 20203a)Country code: ponychan.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  351657

>1 hour 40 minutes
What the fuck

Anonymous (ID: ff323c)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  351821

>>351657
Normally I would be the last person to watch anything this long on YT. I give this trans individual a big congratulations on making every point about the evils of cancel culture, complete with quality citations from people well qualified to provide insight and understanding on the horrors of this problem.

It was not wasted time. I learned a lot.

Starshine!Laura/wmXM (ID: c7549e)Country code: ponychan.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  352502

File: 1578440722486.jpg (118.85 KB, 1501x2047, IMG_20200104_234857.jpg)

Not quite, but it's complicated and I don't wanna get into it in too much textwally detail. I also didn't watch the video and don't really have the 100 minutes to devote to it.

Instead you get some bullet points of my scattered thoughts:
- nonbinary people are valid
- asking pronouns is good and cool
- neopronouns are good and cool
- Buck Angel is Very Bad
- left Twitter is Very Bad
- Breadtube is pretty bad but maybe a necessary evil idk
- putting people's Twitter posts in your video with unredacted profile pics for an audience of millions, many of whom will go and harass those people, is Very Bad
- only marginalized people or relative nobodies get successfully "cancelled"
- my boyfriend is the best, I love him so much
- watch The Idolmaster

Anonymous (ID: d7289e)Country code: ponychan.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  352507

>>352502
Let Buck Angel be bad. He just voiced one line in a video and people are mad at her.

Mk17(phone)!!Trixie (ID: 4ca844)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  352509

File: 1578442300604.png (1.15 MB, 1372x1080, Screenshot_2019-03-24-00-57-04…)

>>352502
2 questions im likely to regret:
1) Whats "breadtube"?
2) Is idolmaster a new show or just a new meme word for the other one?

Toybox(Professional Slut)!!Celestia (ID: 8b0558)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  352512

File: 1578442437183.jpg (41.5 KB, 719x719, KY1UY-5j.jpeg)

>>352502
TBH I don't expect people to ask me my pronouns. If It's bothering me I'll request they call me something different, but it's a little absurd for every single interaction with every single human being to be the beginning of a fucking Pokemon game.

"Are you a boy or a girl?"

Just seems silly. I just choose to not be offended if someone makes a general assumption that overall anyone else would make.

Also, all Twitter is bad.
This post was edited by its author on .

Mk17(phone)!!Trixie (ID: 4ca844)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  352517

File: 1578442959129.png (856.93 KB, 1098x1080, Screenshot_2019-03-24-00-55-43…)

>>352512
In 100% honesty, if this played every time, i would have no problem with that world.

Toybox(Professional Slut)!!Celestia (ID: 8b0558)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  352518

File: 1578443292614.jpg (149.4 KB, 1920x1080, 700fa90b484eb23f6bf5f926e5897c…)

>>352517
I mean I just think it's kinda dumb to expect everyone to go out of their way to ask you something that only effects a very small part of the population. Even if I am part of that population I realize that forcing EVERYONE to always ask all the time just to cater to people like me is just ridiculous.

Though at the same time if I request to be called something different I also think it's reasonable for them to respect that. It's the best way to go about it. Forcing people to do things is just not cool.

Starshine!Laura/wmXM (ID: c7549e)Country code: ponychan.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  352520

File: 1578443544827.jpg (96.92 KB, 938x1298, IMG_20200107_140222.jpg)

>>352507
People are mad at her because she deliberately gave him a platform and free good publicity. She could've gotten basically anyone else but she went with the guy who publicly outed a trans woman to the press without her permission and who routinely spouts transmed talking points and picks fights with so-called "transtrenders". I think people have a right to be upset about that, even if I find the scale and manner really tiring. It all just sucks.

>>352509
Ask and ye shall receive.
1) Breadtube describes a loose collective of lib-leftist YouTubers (deriving from anarcho-communist philosopher Kropotkin's Conquest of Bread). Some of the most well known ones include Shaun, ContraPoints, Hbomberguy.
2) Idolmaster predates Aikatsu and is aimed at more adult audiences. I think I prefer Aikatsu but I'm quite enjoying IMAS as well.

>>352512
>"Are you a boy or a girl?"
Right, but what about the people who are neither? Should they just go fuck they/them/themselves? People defaulting to "she" for me would feel nice and validating, don't get me wrong, but I'm not gonna just say "fuck you, got mine" to people whose identities don't fall neatly into the normie boxes.

Should people be "forced" to ask pronouns? Nah. But I think it's something that should be encouraged, not diacouraged. Natalie caught flak for doing the latter (perhaps unintentionally, but when you have a large platform, you do need to be a bit mindful of what you say and how it will be taken).

Mk17(phone)!!Trixie (ID: 4ca844)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  352524

File: 1578444812311.png (664.62 KB, 1350x1080, Screenshot_2019-03-24-01-45-30…)

>>352520
>Shaun, ContraPoints, Hbomberguy.
I like how 2 of these are unique pseudonyms, and one is just "shaun".

"Oh yeah! Shaun! That one person..."

What makes it geared more for adults?

Also, my 2 cents, if your going to identify as something, especially something that its likely most people never heard of, its kind your responsibility to relay that information when meeting, rather than expect to be asked or offened when someone doesn't get it right or slips up.

Starshine!Laura/wmXM (ID: c7549e)Country code: ponychan.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  352526

File: 1578446039901.jpg (125.31 KB, 792x1056, IMG_20200103_192150.jpg)

>>352524
>What makes it geared more for adults?
More down-to-earth character designs, less cutesy and more mature tone (although still cutesy, it is an idol anime after all), and a smidge of fanservice. Essentially, Aikatsu is an idol anime intended for girls, while Idolmaster is intended for men. Everyone should watch both though.

>rather than expect to be asked

I don't think people who are wheelchair bound expect every building to have elevators or ramps. But it'd certainly be a nicer world for them if they did, right?

Asking people's pronouns costs no money and is much easier to do than making a building accessible. Maybe a bad example since I'm sure there are laws in place to ensure accessibility and obviously disability and gender identity have different sets of circumstances, but that's somewhat how I see it. It makes the world a bit nicer for people outside the norm at basically no cost.

Mk17(phone)!!Trixie (ID: 4ca844)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  352527

File: 1578446773855.png (586.7 KB, 1231x1080, Screenshot_2019-03-24-01-44-22…)

>>352526
Dont draw a parallel between this and someone being physically handicapped and needing a special way just to move their body from one place to another.

No, it cost no money, but it costs a lot of awkwardness and frustration to ask every random person you meet what their pronoun is when 99% of the time your just going to get "the hell are you talking about" in responce, just so you dont accidentally say "her" insead of "phosi" that one time in your entire life.

Ill just take that one person being angery at me over the alternative tbh, because at least then they've identified themself as someone i dont really want to know in the first place, not because they identify as this or that, but because they are stuck up spoild brats that think the entire culture need to change to suite their one characteristic.
Where as, if someone says "oh, im not a her, i identify as phosi" then i wouldnt have any issue at all, would refer to them as they wish, and respect them for being a polite person.
This post was edited by its author on .

Anonymous (ID: d7289e)Country code: ponychan.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  352529

>>352520
>publicly outed a trans woman to the press without her permission
Yeah she addresses that in her video. Very overblown.
>routinely spouts transmed talking points and picks fights with so-called "transtrenders"
People are allowed to disagree. Since when did transmed arguments become unacceptable discourse? I don't agree with truscum either but I mean shit, it isn't that big of a deal. I don't immediately want to cancel everyone who disagrees with me on any minor issue.

Anonymous (ID: d7289e)Country code: ponychan.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  352530

>>352502
also neopronouns are impractical and will never catch on outside of very niche circles

Starshine!Laura/wmXM (ID: c7549e)Country code: ponychan.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  352532

File: 1578449531900.png (192.93 KB, 728x868, IMG_20200105_181207.jpg)

>>352527
It's really not about people getting mad if you don't. If you're nice about it when corrected, most people will still think "hey, that's nice, he's chill". The whole "did you just assume my gender" thing is just a shitty meme. But some people really appreciate being asked first. It's a courteous thing to do. I don't think it's really all that awkward and it doesn't have to be the first thing you say when you meet someone. A casual "hey, by the way, what pronouns should I call you" isn't any more or less awkward than "heyy sorry, I didn't catch your name/I'm really bad with names" and shows you're considerate. Especially if you're not sure.

Obviously it's not a perfect comparison with disability access, I specifically said it isn't. But you know, some people are just as dismissive of demands for accessibility as you are of not-even-a-request for asking pronouns.

>>352529
>I don't immediately want to cancel everyone who disagrees with me on any minor issue
I'm not disagreeing with that. I'm disagreeing with "Natalie did nothing wrong".

>>352530
Hey, you never know. They're not my thing but respecting them comes at no inconvenience to me and makes people happy. Don't see why some people get so upset over them. We're all gonna be dead and decomposing someday.

Starshine!Laura/wmXM (ID: c7549e)Country code: ponychan.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  352533

(Although transmedicalism isn't exactly a "minor issue" since it has real world consequences w.r.t. who has access to hormones. I still agree the pushback is overblown and poorly handled. My overall view on this whole fiasco is SNAFU.)

Starshine!Laura/wmXM (ID: c7549e)Country code: ponychan.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  352534

File: 1578450996969.jpg (661.97 KB, 750x954, IMG_20200107_192151.jpg)

Also I think that Natalie should probably take a hiatus from making videos and engaging in online politics for her own good. God knows I needed a hiatus just from participating in threads like these, and that's obviously microscopic compared to the number of people she reaches and who engage with her work both positively and negatively. Her relationship with her current and former fanbase is not a healthy one and it's evident that, whoever is most at fault, her mental and physical health are taking a fall for it. She needs to stop drinking to deal with her problems, she needs to stop emotionally self-harming by deliberately seeking out the abusive commentary of her most vicious critics, and she needs to develop a healthier way to process and address the more level-headed criticism against her.

!SATSUkIQg2 (ID: 762090)Country code: ponychan.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  352537

why are you absent so often

we need you here

our wells are dry and our wheat is eaten

Mk17(phone)!!Trixie (ID: 4ca844)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  352545

File: 1578456304323.png (242.13 KB, 1280x1190, scratch_takes_a_break_by_birth…)

>>352532
>But some people really appreciate being asked first. It's a courteous thing to do.
Some people for sure do, but i would guess most people wouldn't, and thats the issue. You want to make something the "norm" to cater to a very very small percentage of the population.
Do this, go to an inner city bar, strike up a conversation, and then ask that person what gender they are, im sure it will go over fantastic and all your teeth will be right where they belong.

If its "not a big deal" that everyone inquire about each others gender just to spear the feelings of a fraction of a percent of the population, then why isnt it a "big deal" that the person who has the pronoun that no ones ever heard of just clarify they have a special circumstance?

I think if this point is pushed, especially now, it will do more harm than good trying to gain acceptance, because no one is going to do that for you and honestly it comes off as a pretty selfish request.
I think im a lot more open, accepting, tolerant and empathetic to this than the average person, so i highly doubt you're going to get the average joe to just start asking the gender of people they meet any time in your lifetime without forcing it down the barrel of a gun by making it law, and if you push for that (which im not saying you are) you will never have equality and always be the "other".
This post was edited by its author on .

Edelweiss !Metta5sWWk (ID: 9a9b2e)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  352555

>>352534
she said she stopped and I know I was a lil worried when the video was just wall to wall alcohol

Starshine!Laura/wmXM (ID: c7549e)Country code: ponychan.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  352563

File: 1578461847289.jpg (327.98 KB, 659x796, IMG_20200105_060250.jpg)

>>352537
Been busy with idols, magical girls, and lifey stuff. I'm less absent lately than I had been for a while. Still don't wanna get back in the habit of textwalling all day every day though. I'll textwall sparingly.

>>352545
>If its "not a big deal" that everyone inquire about each others gender...then why isnt it a "big deal" that the person who has the pronoun that no ones ever heard of just clarify they have a special circumstance?
I would think that some people might be shy about that sort of thing. Perhaps that same shyness could lead to them giving a dishonest answer when asked though, who knows.

Still, the act of asking is sort of a tacit signal that the person being asked is in good company. I don't think most people who advocate such things are expecting a majority of cis people to make a habit of always asking each other what their pronouns are. It's moreso to normalize the idea of doing so at all.

And you know, you can never really be sure. There are people who present feminine, consider themselves girls, and use "he". There are people who just outright don't care what pronouns you call them. There are cis people who use "they"! It's useful information to know.

>>352555
That's good.

Thauma (ID: 5f7968)Country code: tr, country type: geoip, valid: 1  352565

>>352520
I just can't understand what purpose the nonbinary definitions serve.
-You can do whatever you want, doesn't matter if you are a boy or a girl.
-If somebody hates a person for, say, being a boy but showing feminine traits, that person would hate them for being nonbinary anyway and a hater deserves no attention
-The abundance of nonbinary terms make them petty and useless, most of them essentially equating to each other except for a miniscule personality difference.

Thauma (ID: 5f7968)Country code: tr, country type: geoip, valid: 1  352566

Oh also tbh natalie is good person but holy shit I cannot watch that long of a video

Anonymous (ID: 3ba355)Country code: ponychan.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  352567

File: 1578462783299.jpg (73.26 KB, 1065x1065, 1557315373413.jpg)

>when your professor singles out the tomboy and asks for her pronouns in front of the whole class and she never shows up again

!SATSUkIQg2 (ID: 762090)Country code: ponychan.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  352568

>>352565
Considering Nat herself claimed that "more of the younger generation" in twitter groups or whatnot tend to be enbies than trans-binaries like herself, if there really is a general move in that direction, then it would suggest newer generations are realizing the sheer magnitude of bullshit that's been cemented through the construct of general roles and they want out, at least for themselves. If true, I can understand that perspective.

Hot take: for all the dangers people say they see in transmedicalism, I think this "gender performativity" idea Nat's pushed on her own has much greater potential for destruction. Because if a binary gender is valid but you then anchor the validity of that gender in the performativity of behaviors conventionally linked to that gender, then in a sense you're validating the gender role. I'd argue this inherently puts performativists and the "gender abolitionist" types at odds with one another, and I'd argue that the abolitionists are the ones more in the right.

Hißpanon !ArepaaIqL. (ID: cd3503)Country code: ponychan.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  352569

File: 1578463550962.png (102.12 KB, 500x519, f_no_estoy_deprimido.png)

>>352567

Or perhaps the most of the class understand the situation and handle it how it is supposed to.

Thauma (ID: 5f7968)Country code: tr, country type: geoip, valid: 1  352570

>>352568
I'm not too familiar with what natalie "pushed", my comments were more pointed towards the nonbinary concept in its entirety.

My own hot take probably would be that concept of gender is fucking useless and things would be fine if we understood that the words male an female are only useful as medical definitions and attaching personality traits down is hopeless.

Thauma (ID: 5f7968)Country code: tr, country type: geoip, valid: 1  352571

>>352569
Didn't you hear? Asking for pronouns is offensive too now lmao

Hißpanon !ArepaaIqL. (ID: cd3503)Country code: ponychan.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  352575

File: 1578464407828.jpg (35.07 KB, 400x400, f_installing_discord.jpg)

>>352571

In public or in front of a class migth be an intimidating experience.

However, it seems to be easier online imo.
This leads me to think that asking is not the root of the problem.
This post was edited by its author on .

Toybox(Professional Slut)!!Celestia (ID: 8b0558)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  352591

File: 1578474703571.jpg (148.79 KB, 1361x766, medakaab1.jpg)

>>352520
>Right, but what about the people who are neither?
Well what would they like to be called? You know, preferably something easy that doesn't consist of like 42 different variables.

To be honest this whole thing is less about discrimination and more about just language in general. The English language was built around the idea of two different pronouns, so it's entire structure kinda relies on that. Trying to shoehorn in other ones, while catering to some individuals, more or less makes communicating a pain in the ass because the English language was not designed to work with a third or more extra pronouns. I mean you can use 'they' but it can get confusing really fast because of what 'they' is traditionally used for, and people find 'it' offensive. So it's like... how exactly does this work?
This post was edited by its author on .

Mk17(phone)!!Trixie (ID: 4ca844)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  352594

File: 1578482643089.png (480.39 KB, 818x1036, Screenshot_2019-03-24-01-46-41…)

>>352563
This >>352567

You seem pretty set on this though, so i dont think continuing to make the same point is going to change your mind, so there isnt much to discuss.
If you want to push for this, i think its going to work against you, but like i said, I think you should start by leading by example and start asking everyone you meet IRL what gender they are. You must already do that though, right?

🦊 (ID: c23d3d)Country code: windows9x.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  352603

File: 1578495796824.png (47.1 KB, 190x209, 398.png)

imagine having gendered pronouns in your language in the year of our holy lord 2020

AustroSpike (ID: 5a9849)Country code: ponychan.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  352611

>>352603
Imagine not applying them to inanimates and abstracts too.

🦊 (ID: c23d3d)Country code: windows9x.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  352612

File: 1578500705961.png (127.47 KB, 262x380, 392.png)

>>352611
everyone knows tables are feminine since they're on the floor on all fours ready to be slammed

Drayenn!AnomalytYU (ID: 69186f)Country code: nz, country type: geoip, valid: 1  352638

File: 1578532271938.png (40.17 KB, 198x250, ungraspable_by_coldbologna_d4y…)

>>352612
Then what about doors?

!smiles.Drs (ID: f87491)Country code: il, country type: geoip, valid: 1  352641

File: 1578541942797.png (357.73 KB, 962x686, 668.PNG)

At least they have a better predisposition towards alcohol tolerance.

Tracer Bullet (ID: b225d1)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  352643

File: 1578542029995.png (24.87 KB, 259x189, 389.png)

>>352641
Oh, hey Smiles. Good to see you're still around.

!SATSUkIQg2 (ID: 762090)Country code: ponychan.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  352647

File: 1578545664601.png (77.15 KB, 1247x477, welp.png)

>>352641
Uhhh....

...Am I pointing out the joke?

!smiles.Drs (ID: f87491)Country code: il, country type: geoip, valid: 1  352649

File: 1578547818201.png (319.8 KB, 607x811, 565.PNG)

>>352643
Are you drinking yourself into a stupor like good ol' ContraPoints these days?

>>352647
Your name comes from Kill la Kill.

!SATSUkIQg2 (ID: 762090)Country code: ponychan.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  352650

>>352649
No, I was like wondering if there was a connotation behind that particular pic, or if there were any reason that phrase was returned when you reverse -

never mind

!smiles.Drs (ID: 7e50fd)Country code: il, country type: geoip, valid: 1  352651

File: 1578548291450.png (290.28 KB, 521x645, 188.PNG)

>>352650
You seem to have hit the jackpot on chromosomes.

Don't spend them all at one place.

!SATSUkIQg2 (ID: 762090)Country code: ponychan.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  352653

>>352651
okay, sorry....

Anonymous (ID: 59015a)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  352674

>>352594
What the hell are you so scared of?

Tracer Bullet (ID: 2a3b33)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  352675

File: 1578568422027.png (8.14 KB, 226x208, 386.png)

>>352649
Unfortunately not. Work has me on call to prevent me from such actions.

Happy Birthday if I don't see you for the next 2 weeks.

Mythix (element of psychological warfare)!wG1CV58ydQ (ID: f02a79)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  352678

File: 1578579669495.jpg (69.27 KB, 600x425, 948DF037-D04B-4B62-905B-BDD088…)

Can Mythix be a gender?

Mk17(phone)!!Trixie (ID: fb0649)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  352680

File: 1578581926453.png (360.79 KB, 933x657, 88845121.PNG)

>>352674
I feel its less of a fear and more of an understanding of basic social interaction personally. But hey, maybe i am just scared, thats why we need people like you to be the trail blazers. So get out there and start bringing peoples gender into question! Ask your teachers and work mates what gender they are today! Call up your friends, siblings and parents too, because you cant just assume i mean, that would be so bad. If you ever get invited to a party or go out to a bar, make sure you get the gender of everyone in the room, everyone will appreciate it, and they will for sure remeber you for it. If you get stopped by a police officer, dont say "yes sir" or "yes ma'am" without first asking what gender they are; same with a job interview. Also, when you meet that certain special someone, make sure you call their gender into question and imply ambiguity.

Im so proud of you for taking this brave path forward, you're a superstar!

>>352678
Yes.
This post was edited by its author on .

🦊 (ID: c23d3d)Country code: windows9x.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  352682

File: 1578584861135.png (120.56 KB, 327x379, 498.png)

>>352680
>dont say "yes sir" or "yes ma'am" without first asking what gender they are
I thought you said "yes, sir" to everyone

that is if you're gonna brown nose authority figures at all

Mk17(phone)!!Trixie (ID: fb0649)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  352683

File: 1578585107919.png (1.15 MB, 1372x1080, Screenshot_2019-03-24-00-57-04…)

>>352682
Well we already know your a shining beacon of social interaction.

Im pretty sure "How to win friends and influence people" was just your biography.

🦊 (ID: c23d3d)Country code: windows9x.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  352684

File: 1578585269406.png (66.98 KB, 160x212, 500.png)

>>352683
what's with the hostility?

Mk17(phone)!!Trixie (ID: fb0649)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  352685

File: 1578585538237.png (287 KB, 640x554, Screenshot_2019-03-23-23-50-24…)

>>352684
You've crafted it over time.
Im suprised your suprised, but im not suprised.

Calling people a "brown noser" for treating others with respect is pretty hostile in of itself i would argue, but i dont want to argue, because that would require talking with you more, which is an activity best avoided.

🦊 (ID: c23d3d)Country code: windows9x.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  352686

File: 1578586835583.png (112.46 KB, 280x398, 382.PNG)

>>352685
you're even more spiteful and vindictive than I thought

Mk17(phone)!!Trixie (ID: fb0649)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  352687

File: 1578587102346.png (364.53 KB, 810x605, Screenshot_2019-03-23-23-53-45…)

>>352686
Noted.


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