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File: 1567982793984.jpg (156.97 KB, 1236x820, 190806_jim_watkins_8chan.jpg)

Pig farmer living in the Philippines testifies to US Congress about online free-speech platform Anonymous (ID: f8f38a)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid:   333614[View All]

52 posts and 30 image replies omitted. Click View to see all.

Ephemeral (ID: dd9626)Country code: dk, country type: geoip, valid: 1  334217

>>334215
Not surprised at all!

Second ammendment advocates are some of the most vocal defenders of minorities rights.

It makes sense too, because a good second ammendment advocate knows that the person most in need of a self-defense tool is an oppressed minority.

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>>334214
No, see. You're not quite understanding what I mean. Let me break it down. Notice: What I'm about to say may sound graphic and sexist, but trust me when I say it's not intended to.

Okay, so basically what this boils down to is how human reproduction works. See one of the primary factors in societies becoming male dominant is basically due to how the penis functions. Bare with me, this will make sense.

So basically what this means is that in order for sex to occur, the male needs to be in an aroused state. This is a prerequisite. However, no such condition actually needs to occur for the female. Even if she is not aroused, or interested, sex can still technically happen. This doesn't work the other way around. Because of this, human society in general has developed to "cater" to the male needs because of this prerequisite. This is basically why women have been associated with being attractive and pretty. Because this facilitates the male's prerequisite. This is also why males don't seem to have the same pressure to be as attractive, because women have no such prerequisite.

And since humanity started from the same primitive beginnings as all animals, this feature was a leading factor in social structure as it was built to the modern times. It's only been recently that such factors are now mostly irrelevant, but since all the groundwork for modern society was based on this particular factor, it's been very hard to remove it without basically scrapping everything and starting over.
This post was edited by its author on .

Ephemeral (ID: dd9626)Country code: dk, country type: geoip, valid: 1  334219

>>334218
Look, I already know all of this. I don't know why it's relevant, either.

It's demonstrably true that female directors tend to produce movies that portray women as having more agency and self-reliance than male directors do.

Whether or not the woman's active participation is required for reproduction, does not change this.
This post was edited by its author on .

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>>334219
I was explaining why there are less female directors in general.

I was already aware of this and even said as much in previous posts.
This post was edited by its author on .

Ephemeral (ID: dd9626)Country code: dk, country type: geoip, valid: 1  334221

>>334220
Okay, so we don't disagree at all!

Mk17!!Trixie (ID: 22f67c)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  334222

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>>334217
Right, but having a trans bill of rights you would expect in a "democratic" place like California, and having a pro 2nd amendment attitude you would expect from a "Republican" place like georgia, but having both might not be expected, and often isnt the case.

Because people label themselves "Democrats" and "Republicans" and those issues have become exclusive to those groups.

Thats my issue with labeled philosophies, is when trans rights and gun rights become owned by one or the other, its much harder for them to coexist in the minds of the people under the label.

Pro gun democrats will hide that feeling for fear of what others in their group would think, and same with pro immigration republicans, since the label has dictated as such that they should not be of that opinion.
In this manner as well, i find it to be an obstacle to good conversation.

Such is the problem i see with tribalism in general.

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>>334221
Not really. I'm just saying that women are better at writing for women and men are better at writing for men.

Case in point: The Twilight movies. Written and directed by women. The men LITERALLY sparkled in the sunlight.

It's just how things are. Again "write what you know."

Mk17!!Trixie (ID: 22f67c)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  334224

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>>334223
I sparkle in the sunlight.

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>>334224
I have my doubts.

Ephemeral (ID: dd9626)Country code: dk, country type: geoip, valid: 1  334226

>>334223
Sure!

AND we should encourage the employment and education of female directors when they are capable of telling compelling and interesting stories ESPECIALLY when opposition to their employment would perhaps not exist, in an egalitarian system.

>>334222
That's definitely a good point.

But ya kinda have to have these heuristics too, to make sense of the world in a consise manner. We can't reduce everything to it's elements. It's kind of a catch-22?

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>>334226
>AND we should encourage the employment and education of female directors when they are capable of telling compelling and interesting stories

We should encourage directors who are good at what they do regardless of gender.

Ephemeral (ID: dd9626)Country code: dk, country type: geoip, valid: 1  334228

>>334227
so close

yet so far

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>>334228
What do you mean?

Mk17!!Trixie (ID: 22f67c)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  334230

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>>334225
It actually has the doctors considerably worried.
I've been under quarantine for months and still there are no answers.
If i undergo just one more spinal tap i think i may lose my mind.

Ephemeral (ID: dd9626)Country code: dk, country type: geoip, valid: 1  334231

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>>334229
Just that if you'd taken that last step, I think that'd be pretty cool. I think we've talked this topic out.

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>>334231
What last step?

Mk17!!Trixie (ID: 22f67c)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  334233

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>>334232
Feminists tend to argue for equality of outcome rather than equality of opportunity, so i would guess that saying
>regardless of gender.
Would be seen as not taking that last step.
I could be wrong, and im not trying to put words in the mouth of eph, but most of the time that i talk to feminists, the idea is that the landscape should be dominated by genders equally, which means if you have 4 seats and men already occupy 2 and the 3rd seat is being competed for by a man, and a woman, that seat should go to the woman by default, regardless of qualifications.

Edit
Reworded.
This post was edited by its author on .

Ephemeral (ID: dd9626)Country code: dk, country type: geoip, valid: 1  334234

>>334233
Clooooose, but I only speak regarding the issue of cinema, because that's one I'm familiar with, and I like the specific wording of my post here >>334226

more than the equality of outcome opportunity dichotomy which I think reduces the complexity of the problem to a point beyond recognition.
This post was edited by its author on .

Mk17!!Trixie (ID: 22f67c)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  334235

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>>334234
So whats the step toy isnt taking with her statement of
>We should encourage directors who are good at what they do regardless of gender.
?

That seems fair, and in line with we should encourage girls to become directors and not be opposed to their employment as such.
Because we should also be encouraging boys too, correct?
This post was edited by its author on .

Ephemeral (ID: dd9626)Country code: dk, country type: geoip, valid: 1  334236

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>>334235
The problem is, as Toy and I have both alluded to, that the world is not an impartial judge. Women do not get an entirely fair shake, from the very getgo. the industry is all male, and for a variety of comlpicating factors that have nothing to do with natural ability or aptitude, if you treat men and women equally, women are not going to get as many cinema jobs.

So we have that awareness. What does it mean. I choose to interpret this as meaning that we have a responsibility to be charitable, encouraging, and promoting of women that have aptitude for or interest in Cinema. That's something we can do on an individual level. On a collective level, we can choose to fund female-centric narratives, and give awards to female stories, and stuff like this. We can increase the visibility of the narratives that do exist, to allow easy access to the kinds of rolemodels that women might need, if we want them to develop to be independent and self-reliant.
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>>334236
>if you treat men and women equally, women are not going to get as many cinema jobs.

That's not actually true. Because what you're describing is not actually equality. See you're concerned with the idea that if we don't make a specific PUSH for women to be in those jobs, nothing will change. Realistically, you may be right to be honest. However, you cannot say you stand for equality if you are giving one side a boost over the other, even if that boost is there to make up for the difference in status for both parties.

That being said, I have no actual problem with giving women an extra boost, I just don't like that being toted as equality, because it's not. It's simply equalization, which is different.

Ephemeral (ID: dd9626)Country code: dk, country type: geoip, valid: 1  334238

>>334235
So I guess I just ranted and didn't really answer the question. Sorry about that.

The step Toy isn't taking is that she'll aknowledge that there's an imbalance there, but seemingly is not so interested in whether or not this should have any effect on how she acts.

Toybox thinks, well everyone should just see this imbalance and stop doing these imbalanced things. I don't want to try and tip the scale the way of the oppressed, because two wrongs don't make a right.

Now, I don't like that way of thinking. I think you need a very high level of awareness to reach that amount of clarity on the issues facing women in just one field, and you're never going to reach a point where society is so collectively aware, that these issues dissappear. The be aware and don't tip the scales approach, basically upholds the status quo. And since I don't consider the status quo fair, I think we should try and think of other solutions.

>>334237
I mean if everyone treated women equally this would certainly lead to as many female directors as male directors. I think.

But I mean more like, if the woke portions of the population are content with not advocating for social change in favor of women at all, and the non-woke (sorry for the terminology) continue as normal, and the industry remains founded by men, who we agree are not woke to women's issues, then the status quo is perpetuated regardless of how impartial you and I consider ourselves.

So that's a clarification.

I think you're thinking of the difference between egalitarianism and equality?

Mk17!!Trixie (ID: 22f67c)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  334239

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>>334236
I suppose it depends on if your looking at the problem from an evolutionary biology or a social science perspective.

I gather your more in the social science camp, where nurture has more influence than nature.
Im more in the evolutionary biology camp where i would say both play a roll fairly equally.
So if you see a disproportional amount of women in directing rolls, when men and woman are given the same conditions, it probably just means not as many woman want to go into that line of work.

To artificially push woman into a career they might not naturally want, just to say that field "equal" i dont see as a very good solution.

In fact, most of what I've read indicates that when given completely equal treatment, men an woman tend to divide more on sex lines than in mainstream society.

Its not a "problem" as i see it, just a consequence of our evolution.
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>>334238
I get what you're saying and you're not wrong.

It's just not equality.

It's equalization.
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Ephemeral (ID: dd9626)Country code: dk, country type: geoip, valid: 1  334241

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>>334239
I mean I'm pretty enamored with the social sciences, but I'm not above a good ol' fashioned reductionistic approach either

What bothers me about this idea that women are just evolutionarily wired to not want to get into cinema is that you literally cannot test this in a vacuum. Social behavior was created through evolution, and evolution happened in the midst of a bunch of social behavior. How are you going to investigate what's what? Social systems are incredibly interdependent, and one is not born but rather becomes a person. What use is it to speculate, whether something is natural or not anyway. Since when has what was natural ever been an important ethical or moral consideration?

Even approaching it from a evolutionary angle seems to often fall into the trap of thinking that this is something which can be experimentally investigated, which I don't think is really the case?

But I mean if women really don't wanna direct, maybe there wouldn't be a whole movement dedicated to getting more women into directing role, and a large body of women invested in this goal?

From where I'm standing it at least seems like a safe bet that this could improve cinema a bit.

>>334240
I mean as long as we all feel that we are heard and understood you know.

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>>334241
My main problem with feminism is that it claims to push for equal rights but it doesn't. It pushes for social booster seats for one class of people. Granted those people may need those booster seats to be on the same level as those without but again, that is not equality, it's equalization.

I have no problem with the goal of feminism. I have a problem with how they market it.

Ephemeral (ID: dd9626)Country code: dk, country type: geoip, valid: 1  334243

>>334242
I mean everyone makes mistakes, but I feel like maybe you're also being a bit uncharitable. A lot of what Feminism does is stuff like promoting reproductive rights and fighting toxic gender stereotypes.

There's this aspect of quotas and affirmative action, but this is a tiny, tiny portion of feministic action that has been heavily politicized.

Mk17!!Trixie (ID: 22f67c)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  334245

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>>334241
I dont see how my points are a "reduction" compared to yours, or how my perspective is somehow less pragmatic than yours just because its different, but there are tangible biological differences physically and mentally between men and woman on average, and that's across the entire animal kingdom.

So of course you will see men and woman split in chosen careers. You would always expect to see more male construction workers and more female child care specialists because those are fields of work conducive to the strengths of those sexes.
That doesn't mean men and woman should be bared from those professions but it means that a disproportional amount of men or women in one or the other isnt indicative of there being a "problem".

So if you encourage more woman than men to get into a field that they dont naturally gravitate to just to create an artificial 50/50 split, thats not equality, its just you applying a social pressure to make the world look like how you think it ought to, which seems counterintuitive to your stated philosophy and just a continuation of the thing you say you have a problem with.
This post was edited by its author on .

Ephemeral (ID: dd9626)Country code: dk, country type: geoip, valid: 1  334246

>>334245
>I dont see how my points are a "reduction" compared to yours, or how my perspective is somehow less pragmatic than yours just because its different, but there are tangible biological differences physically and mentally between men and woman on average, and that's across the entire animal kingdom.
Well evolutionary biology as a field is more reductionistic than most of the fields in social sciences. Not in like a negative way, it just examines more specific aspects of reality.

I don't think it logically follows that because men and women are different in some ways, they are therefore different in ALL ways. Also, note that I do not think we should enforce a perfect 50/50 equality but maybe something better than a 90/10 would be good?

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>>334246
>I don't think it logically follows that because men and women are different in some ways, they are therefore different in ALL ways. Also, note that I do not think we should enforce a perfect 50/50 equality but maybe something better than a 90/10 would be good?

What Mk and I are saying is that the split itself doesn't actually matter. It could be 99/1 as long as there is legitimately only 1 female that wants to be there. The numbers are irrelevant as long as everyone that wants a chance gets one. If there are 20 positions available and 25 men apply and 15 women apply and only 5 of them are qualified and 15 men are qualified, a 15/5 split is okay because people are being judged on merit, not gender. Likewise if 10 women are qualified and only 10 men are qualified it should be 10/10, and if 15 women are qualified and only 5 men are, 5/15.

The problem arises when you have 15 men that are qualified and only 5 women, but you only hire 10 of the men so you can hire 5 more unqualified women just to fill an arbitrary 10/10 quota.

Mk17!!Trixie (ID: 22f67c)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  334249

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>>334246
I think the split should be determined by the people going into the field and not messed with artificially whatsoever.

If under a system of equal opportunity the split is 90/10 that just means 90% more of one sex than the other has interest in that line of work, not that i need to apply social pressures to one or the other until my observations match my imagination.

Ephemeral (ID: dd9626)Country code: dk, country type: geoip, valid: 1  334250

>>334248
>The problem arises when you have 15 men that are qualified and only 5 women, but you only hire 10 of the men so you can hire 5 more unqualified women just to fill an arbitrary 10/10 quota.
This is an absurd idea, though.

I mean, I would never advocate for this.

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>>334250
You may not, but to many this is what "equality" means.

Ephemeral (ID: dd9626)Country code: dk, country type: geoip, valid: 1  334252

>>334249
>I think the split should be determined by the people going into the field and not messed with artificially whatsoever.
It's not messing with anything to encourage or incentivize women. You're acting like I'm arguing for something radical here but I'm really not.

>>334251
I think you've watched too much fox news or something, tbh. I mean, I run in some pretty radical circles, and I've NEVER, not even once, heard someone discuss quotas in a positive light. This is just not a competitive idea.

vynn (ID: e7736f)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  334254

#NotAllMen

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>>334252
I would appreciate it if you did not insinuate that I get my ideas from talking heads on TV, thanks. Especially Faux News.

I'm talking from personal experiences. I'm sure you know what a TERF is?
This post was edited by its author on .

Ephemeral (ID: dd9626)Country code: dk, country type: geoip, valid: 1  334258

>>334255
Idk, I just don't see it is all I'm saying, and I'd expect to be exposed to some of the more fringe ideas even.

Sure, a trans-exclusionary-rad-fem

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>>334258
It doesn't surprise me you don't, tbh. The people that most associate with a core of a group are the ones that generally are the least likely to confront those on the fringe. It's like being in the eye of a tornado. You may think everything is calm and peachy but those outside of that little circle are definitely NOT having the same experience.

Ephemeral (ID: dd9626)Country code: dk, country type: geoip, valid: 1  334264

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>>334261
That's an idea I've never heard before.

But let's grant that it's true. In this case, the majority of feminism is not the feminism you have a problem with? Or am I misinterpreting what you're saying here?

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>>334264
I think the best thing I can give you to explain it is this:
Why It's Impossible To Advance A Cause Online

Don't let the logo fool you, this was back before they completely fell apart and actually used to make quality content and not the bullshit they spew now. This video sums it up pretty well.

Ephemeral (ID: dd9626)Country code: dk, country type: geoip, valid: 1  334270

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>>334267
I'm done for tonight, actually. I'm gonna go read my book for a bit before bed but maybe I'll check it tomorrow

Mk17!!Trixie (ID: bfb8da)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  334271

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>>334252
>It's not messing with anything to encourage or incentivize women.
Then i dont see the problem with the statement
>We should encourage directors who are good at what they do regardless of gender.
Or with the split in proportion along sex lines that may result.

>>334254
Probably some of them though, for sure. :P

Ephemeral (ID: dd9626)Country code: dk, country type: geoip, valid: 1  334272

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>>334271
Good discussion, buddy

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>>334270
Well, if you're just tired then enjoy your night. If I upset you, it was unintentional and I apologise.

Ephemeral (ID: dd9626)Country code: dk, country type: geoip, valid: 1  334275

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>>334273
I'm just not into the 9 minute video right this sec. And I wanna read my book it's so good.

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>>334275
Okay, tl;dr of the video is that there are a small number of people who are actually dedicated to any particular cause and about 50,000 five year olds that will scream and yell about it without thought that think they are helping said cause.

What is not stated in the video is this: If you're at the core of a movement and you have a bunch of bloodthirsty lunatics looking to destroy everyone they disagree with who THINK they are fighting for your cause, you aren't their target, so they will more or less disregard you, which is probably why you haven't experienced them that much.
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Mk17!!Trixie (ID: 22f67c)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  334280

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>>334272
Not really, especially if you're ending it in such a dismissive manor.

It did start out that way, but it seems to me that if both me and toy are making essentially the same point to you, and your saying we dont understand what your saying, maybe the issue is that your doing a bad job communicating your point, not that your so much smarter than us that we "just cant understand".

But yeah, if your just going to accuse us of "watching too much fox news" and be purely dismissive, then yeah, prob not worth the discussion.

My negative image of feminists has not changed thanks to this discussion.

Edit:
I read you were going to bed after i read your comment to me, so from my perspective it seemed like you were answering my question with the equivalent of "cool story bro".
Which, might still be the case, but i would be remiss to assume.
This post was edited by its author on .

Ephemeral (ID: dd9626)Country code: dk, country type: geoip, valid: 1  334284

>>334280
>I read you were going to bed after i read your comment to me, so from my perspective it seemed like you were answering my question with the equivalent of "cool story bro".
>Which, might still be the case, but i would be remiss to assume.
No definitely just genuinely saying thanks for a good discussion!

Sorry, I'm a bit beat, it's been a long day, so I probably forgot my cordiality a bit there at the end because I just wanted to wrap it up.

Mk17!!Trixie (ID: e494c1)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  334287

File: 1568155059078.png (498.27 KB, 896x720, Daring_Do_fully_revealed_S6E13…)

>>334284
Alright, then i retract that comment.
But i wasnt sure if this was a "thats an interesting point!" meaning "I dont want to discuss this anymore and wish to disengage" situation, or if you were being genuine.

If you were being genuine, then, yes good conversation.

Anonymous (ID: a31543)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  334288

File: 1568155456198.jpg (39.9 KB, 457x450, 12745869_502190146651747_10965…)

>>334194
>Male stories are centered in so many moves something like 8/10 oscar nominated movies fail the bechdel test. And the movies that do have women have them as props to male leads
In anime, females are often the main characters.


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