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File: 1557896175126.jpg (199.35 KB, 430x628, mpv-shot0083.jpg)

Alabama bans abortions at *any* stage of pregnancy... Starshine!Laura/wmXM (ID: 41272d)Country code: lunachan.png, country type: customflag, valid:   282365[Last 50 Posts]

...punishable by up to 99 years in prison (!), with the only exception being cases where the woman's life is in danger.

>The GOP-dominated Senate voted 25-6 to make performing an abortion at any stage of pregnancy a felony punishable by up to 99 years or life in prison for the abortion provider. The only exception would be when the woman’s health is at serious risk.

>Senators rejected an attempt to add an exception for rape and incest. The amendment was voted down 21-11, with four Republicans joining Democrats.
>Supporters said the bill is designed to conflict with the U.S. Supreme Court’s landmark 1973 Roe v. Wade decision legalizing abortion nationally, because they hope to spark a court case that might prompt the justices to revisit abortion rights.

https://www.apnews.com/fbae135281e64818946f72cfdb199dcb

Ika (ID: 1a97fc)Country code: mx, country type: geoip, valid: 1  282378

File: 1557896747475.png (754.92 KB, 864x820, 8caa23815e4b4101c87c4dbc98e4ca…)

Everyone get their popcorn, cuz I predict a storm of people defending this shit happening n this thread.

Mk17(phone)!!Trixie (ID: a7e97a)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  282391

File: 1557897695021.png (135.57 KB, 340x304, kjhkjh99898.PNG)

The 9 weeks thing was pretty bad, "any stage" is flat out illegal.

I said before this was just a way for them to bring it to court, its a dirty move, hopefully it fails.

If the SCOTUS doesnt shoot it down (which tbh, is debatable) then they will be a laughingstock imo.
This post was edited by its author on .

Cato (ID: def3d0)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  282393

File: 1557897849239.jpg (343.75 KB, 1107x1000, 72186424_p0.jpg)

I am just happy it is not North Carolina

Anonymous (ID: 9ba490)Country code: templeos.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  282402

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhh

Mk17(phone)!!Trixie (ID: a7e97a)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  282414

File: 1557898721450.png (173.17 KB, 362x377, 9865411000.PNG)

>>282402
I agree.

Anonymous (ID: bbba24)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  282454

File: 1557901850573.gif (1.2 MB, 365x359, 1553399696441.gif)

democracy fails again

F (ID: b3b6cc)Country code: ponychan.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  282458

The South fought the 1973 Roe v. Wade decision a lot in the 70s and 80s with laws that mademit harder to get an abortion, and the Supreme Court made most of them illegal.
Looks like they hope that the Supreme Court has changed enough to try it again.

Mk17(phone)!!Trixie (ID: a7e97a)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  282489

File: 1557923757077.png (192.38 KB, 366x418, 1555719442956.png)

>>282458
Yeah, if it gets there.
Will be interesting to see if Kavanaugh was lying though, as he said he would stand by roe v wade.
I hate that people wont see the irony in rights for me but not for thee.

Abortion is an easily manipulated subject because people dont normally casually talk about their experiences, so the media gets to paint the face of the average person involved.

You are right though, this isnt the first time the south has had a flare up. I think the people on the other side, the "pro-life" folks really do think the are advocating for the rights of children, they just simply looks at life differently. But in their minds you are murdering a baby, which, is probably a hard thing to stand by and watch if you think that way.

Ethiopian Food (ID: 791e94)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  282491

File: 1557924212066.jpg (347.26 KB, 1956x1380, boob-chart-1497637956037.jpg)

>>282391
>If the SCOTUS doesnt shoot it down (which tbh, is debatable) then they will be a laughingstock imo.
I predict it will be summarily struct down by the district court and appellate court, and SCOTUS won't grant cert.
Another thing to note is that this law is obviously unconstitutional under existing Supreme Court precedent, so qualified immunity won't apply to any law enforcement officers who try to enforce it (meaning that they can sued for damages under 42 U.S.C. § 1983).

Mk17(phone)!!Trixie (ID: a7e97a)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  282492

File: 1557924870896.png (118.86 KB, 307x316, 88897454.PNG)

>>282491
Its a weird flex for them to blatantly admit they did this with the intention of conflicting with the law though.

So in the back of my head im wondering how many activist judges they are counting on.
This post was edited by its author on .

Anonymous (ID: e9b418)Country code: windows9x.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  282494

File: 1557925172511.jpg (194.89 KB, 960x640, 65.jpg)

Pro-life until born, then they gotta pull theirselves up by their bootstraps. KKona

>>282391
They're both terrible cases. If a doctor determines that a baby will be born dying, they have to go through with it and keep them alive until they suffer a horrible death.

This is just one case of morally justifiable abortion.

Mk17(phone)!!Trixie (ID: a7e97a)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  282496

File: 1557926214679.png (264.03 KB, 554x478, 1556338297687.png)

>>282494
Eh fine, ill bite.

Are you making a counterpoint to what i said or are you just saying that as a statement?
This post was edited by its author on .

Anonymous (ID: e9b418)Country code: windows9x.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  282499

>>282496
Both..? I find it troubling to say a 6 week window is just pretty bad, not horrid.

Mk17(phone)!!Trixie (ID: a7e97a)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  282501

File: 1557928062161.png (364.77 KB, 640x528, 1555694358303.png)

>>282499
Yeah, i said 9 and sorry if i didnt emote enough for you.
It is horrid. There you go!

haha.
Good troll.

Anyway, i looked into the nestle situation, i couldnt find much spacifcly about your country, just that they buy public water and resell it to people at 100s of times the amount.
But, thats what all bottled water companies do.
If they are actually trying to privatise the infrastructure in your community, like whats connected to your tap, i would seriously start fighting that.
Otherwise, people should just stop buying bottled water if you have access to clean water from your tap.
This post was edited by its author on .

Anonymous (ID: e9b418)Country code: windows9x.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  282505

>>282501
>Good troll.
What the hell is your problem?

The Nestlé thing was an example of the sort of shit we have to worry about, and it was a brief panic, even if the source was dubious.

Mk17(phone)!!Trixie (ID: a7e97a)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  282507

File: 1557929261802.png (210.47 KB, 327x470, 303303.PNG)

>>282505
>your problem?
You said you litterally just press f5 on ef to hound for people to rag on.
That being the case, I dont give much credence to what you say and work under the assumption that your just trying to pick a fight. But i also dont plan to intentionally be a jerk to you ether.
So its not really a problem, per se.

Anonymous (ID: e9b418)Country code: windows9x.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  282512

>>282507
I'll make sure to put a sarcasm warning in the future so your smooth brain can handle it.

Mk17(phone)!!Trixie (ID: a7e97a)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  282520

File: 1557931722706.jpg (15.43 KB, 335x371, th (1).jpeg)

>>282512

That wont cause me to respect you enough to want to gain your perspective on anything, but i doubt thats your intention.

In the meantime, who do you think makes the best shoe?

Anonymous (ID: e9b418)Country code: windows9x.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  282522

>>282520
Yes, I gave up on you ages ago.

Mk17(phone)!!Trixie (ID: a7e97a)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  282525

File: 1557932298630.png (365.38 KB, 583x524, 15484896989.PNG)

>>282522
I take that as a compliment.

Now to teach the others that you bother how to get you to give up on them too, and we'll be free.

Mk17(phone)!!Trixie (ID: a7e97a)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  282607

File: 1557947437730.png (244.92 KB, 364x485, makmak.PNG)

Mint horse (ID: e9dfbe)Country code: gb, country type: geoip, valid: 1  282659

File: 1557957342995.jpg (67.48 KB, 1280x720, IMG_0844.JPG)

>99 years
Even I have to admit that this is fucked up.

Anonymous (ID: 02d197)Country code: mlpchan.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  282746

File: 1557963115205.jpg (114.61 KB, 1200x975, D0dKG23UYAAojsg.jpg)

>They have no opinion on punishing a rapist, but they'll put the person who administers the abortions 99 years in jail.

🇯🇵 (ID: fbfc2e)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  283306

File: 1558031985262.jpg (441.42 KB, 1200x1705, cf638477cef6fc94a41d2624d065c6…)

Abortion should be effectively mandatory in the case of major fetal defects that would cost a lot in medical expenses or disability welfare. There is no reason for taxpayers to subsidize defective offspring that could have been aborted. So much for Republican fiscal responsibility.

Mk17(phone)!!Trixie (ID: 3e4e62)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  283312

File: 1558033391361.png (328.93 KB, 811x650, 7894533255.PNG)

>>283306
Idk about mandatory but you should have the option.

Forcing a mother to terminate their child against their will would be several layers of fucked up.

And tbh, i think thats what some anti abortion folks are scared of.
This post was edited by its author on .

Anonymous (ID: a70820)Country code: ponychan.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  283329

>>283312
Just DNA screen everyone at birth, and sterilize them if necessary.
That would solve most genetic disorders in one or two generations.

Mk17(phone)!!Trixie (ID: 3e4e62)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  283331

File: 1558036835045.png (347.38 KB, 778x656, 232145454.PNG)

>>283329
Your not technically wrong, but thats why people own rifles, so that you cant do that.

🇯🇵 (ID: fbfc2e)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  283334

>>283312
>Forcing a mother to terminate their child against their will would be several layers of fucked up.
Oh, I'm not suggesting that govt agents physically seize her and rip the fetus out of her body by force. I'm just suggesting economic policies that would make the mother bear the full economic burden of the defective baby rather than forcing taxpayers as a whole to cover those costs.

Mk17(phone)!!Trixie (ID: 3e4e62)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  283336

File: 1558037487977.png (218.38 KB, 424x437, wsmwsm.PNG)

>>283334
So private health insurance?

Isnt that pretty much what we already have? In the US anyway.

You would also need to get rid of laws that force hospitals to treat life threatening situations. Which, i dont really want you to do tbh.

Anonymous (ID: fbfc2e)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  283350

>>283336
>Isnt that pretty much what we already have? In the US anyway.
ObamaCare forbade companies from denying coverage of pre-existing conditions.

>>283336
>need to get rid of laws that force hospitals to treat life threatening situations
I'd make a distinction between acute emergencies (where there is no time to verify insurance status) and expensive chronic long-term care.

🐈🐈Dodger🐈🐈!FGiFL0Ecls (ID: 3b27f6)Country code: windows9x.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  283355

File: 1558040487742.png (223.33 KB, 760x532, 63580837_p2.png)

>>283306
What about all the countless able-bodied folks that are an effective tax drain because they make less than $40k a year?

!XSAILBoatg (ID: 97b7fe)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  283395

File: 1558046307196.png (54.36 KB, 500x500, h88648918.png)

got a haircut today. was talking briefly with my barber, who's around 70 years old, about politics, as spurred on by some local news that got us on the topic.

To paraphrase, he said "I was raised a Democrat. I've been a Democrat all my life. I'm gonna die a Democrat. I just wish I could vote for a Democrat again."

He seems to think Trump is effective and doing a decent job, especially contrasted with Obama, whose handling of the economy in particular was disastrous.

IRL Democrats are reasonable people.

Cato (ID: 830f56)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  283405

File: 1558047602715.jpg (313.3 KB, 2048x2048, 8ztptlw9sbk21.jpg)

>>283395
What was his justification for Obama's handling of the economy being disastrous?

Doesn't really sound like a Democrat, just someone attached to titles

!XSAILBoatg (ID: 97b7fe)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  283411

File: 1558048521971.png (404.76 KB, 600x657, asadaffaf.png)

>>283405 Falsely propping up of the economy through stimulus checks, as well as the major corporate/bank bailouts.
edit: also, promising free stuff without realizing that the taxpayers have to pay for it.

He also mentioned, in terms of how fucked up the economy is, that when he was selling a home, the realtor and the lender for the buyers wanted to do some fancy paperwork to give the buyers a zero-money-down house payment, at the barber's own expense, to be paid back by the buyer. He told them "hell no" since he wasn't going to sell a house to someone who couldn't even make a down payment.

And he pointed out how stupid it is, that the Democrats now oppose "the wall" despite being for the wall a decade ago.

He sounds to me like a Democrat that the party left behind. kind of how the Democrats are leaving behind reality nowadays.
This post was edited by its author on .

Starshine!Laura/wmXM (ID: 41272d)Country code: lunachan.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  283415

File: 1558049223553.jpg (304.8 KB, 601x718, mpv-shot0068.jpg)

>>283395
This raises three questions for me, one of which Cato already asked. But here's the other two.

1) In what way is Trump handling the economy better?
2) Can he really clam to be a capital-D Democrat if he hasn't voted for a Democrat in apparently quite some time (which seems to be the implication in "I just wish I could vote for a Democrat again.")

Even if I could vote (in which case I would likely vote primarily, though not exclusively, for Democrats), I wouldn't call myself a Democrat, because I don't support the Democratic Party. I support a few key issues that are a part of their current platform (universal healthcare, LGBT rights, women's rights, tax reform, education reform) and that I think are important, and find the opposing stances from the other major party appalling enough that I'd even take a sleazebag like Biden over them (unless some Republican candidate very signifcantly broke the GOP mold, or a Green or Libertarian or other third party candidate was actually politically viable).

!XSAILBoatg (ID: 97b7fe)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  283421

File: 1558049563047.png (152.74 KB, 1199x1024, 1395273824166.png)

>>283415
1) I didn't ask. Not doing the things mentioned >>283411 surely accounts for most of it. I didn't ask if his tax rate was lower this year, but I'd also be surprised if it wasn't.
2) Yes. He also mentioned that the party votes as a block to do things, and so when they want to do something stupid, they all vote together as one big stupid block.

He cited Bernie as the worst candidate he's seen recently, and someone he could never support or vote for.
He cited Pelosi as the example of the Dems having essentially gone off the rails.

vynn (ID: c272d7)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  283422

File: 1558049573920.png (149.08 KB, 677x722, bf949a24-2c81-4f46-b142-6d2a86…)

Was gonna say something but dang do I really need to stick to keeping my nose out of politic discussion

Starshine!Laura/wmXM (ID: 41272d)Country code: lunachan.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  283424

File: 1558049762982.jpg (119.06 KB, 1280x720, mpv-shot0124.jpg)

Note: I don't like Obama either.

In fact, the only Democrats I actually like and would feel good about voting for rather than just "meh, better than the other guys" are the ones you seem to think are "leaving reality behind" -- the progressives.

I fully support an exodus from the Democratic Party because I think it's trash, but I don't think that should entail casting votes for Republicans.

Aside from climate change, I think one of our highest political priorities is electoral reform. It's high time we abolish first-past-the-post and implement some form of preferential voting so we can begin to repair the abject disgrace that is our political system.

I also think we should take steps to make our democracy more direct. Perhaps not completely abolish the electoral college (although I am sympathetic to this position), but certainly reform districting to curtail gerrymandering at the bare minimum.

>>283421
>He also mentioned that the party votes as a block to do things, and so when they want to do something stupid, they all vote together as one big stupid block.
Republicans are just as guilty of this.

>He cited Bernie as the worst candidate he's seen recently, and someone he could never support or vote for.

Almost diametrically disagree on this one. Bernie's far from the best, but he's leagues above the rest of the Democrats in my books.

>He cited Pelosi as the example of the Dems having essentially gone off the rails.

Agreed, although I hope that's not because of her support for the Equality Act, which is like the only good thing about her.
This post was edited by its author on .

!XSAILBoatg (ID: 97b7fe)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  283430

File: 1558049984508.jpg (70.03 KB, 682x961, 30_min_chalenge_maud_pie_crava…)

>>283424
>In fact, the only Democrats I actually like and would feel good about voting for rather than just "meh, better than the other guys" are the ones you seem to think are "leaving reality behind" -- the progressives.
Yeah, who needs airplanes... We can just take the train to Europe.

>I fully support an exodus from the Democratic Party because I think it's trash, but I don't think that should entail casting votes for Republicans.

makes sense to me.

>Aside from climate change, I think one of our highest political priorities is electoral reform. It's high time we abolish first-past-the-post and implement some form of preferential voting so we can begin to repair the abject disgrace that is our political system.

I agree.

>I also think we should take steps to make our democracy more direct. Perhaps not completely abolish the electoral college (although I am sympathetic to this position), but certainly reform districting to curtail gerrymandering at the bare minimum.

disagree on the first; agree on the second. thankfully, my party doesn't have superdelegates to overrule my votes. can't say the same for the dems.

>>>283421 (You)

>Republicans are just as guilty of this.
sure. but he isn't a republican. he's complaining about his own party.

>Almost diametrically disagree on this one. Bernie's far from the best, but he's leagues above the rest of the Democrats in my books.

I was surprised at this as well. but that's his opinion.

>Agreed, although I hope that's not because of her support for the Equality Act, which is like the only good thing about her.

I didn't ask why.

Cato (ID: 830f56)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  283431

File: 1558050026609.gif (508.12 KB, 500x414, 00blinkblink.gif)

>>283411
But the republicans were the ones who wanted bailouts, no? Or do rich bankers only turn to whichever side suits them best?
What free stuff did he promise that he couldn't pay for?
Also how can anyone say he was an economic failure when he started in the middle of one of the worst downturns in modern history and ended with a strong economy that is surviving despite what someone like Trump tries to do to it?

Is that how fucked up the economy is now or how bad it was in 2008? That is kinda the definition of what happens during a housing crisis.

When were democrats in favor of a wall? I was 14 a decade ago, so I never was for anything like that.

Maybe he is just a centrist that realizes none of the two options fit him perfectly

Anonymous (ID: e9e9c7)Country code: efchan.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  283432

Alabama is a pit full of raw sewage. What do you expect?
This post was edited by its author on .

!XSAILBoatg (ID: 97b7fe)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  283435

File: 1558050270317.jpg (15.47 KB, 236x377, ac38872882a1c26bf397e78516e060…)

>>283431
>But the republicans were the ones who wanted bailouts, no?
You're right, Dubya did start the trend (and I disagreed with it when he did as well). Obama cranked it to 11.
>Or do rich bankers only turn to whichever side suits them best?
bingo.
>What free stuff did he promise that he couldn't pay for?
the entire national debt is unpaid for.
>Also how can anyone say he was an economic failure when he started in the middle of one of the worst downturns in modern history and ended with a strong economy that is surviving despite what someone like Trump tries to do to it?
probably because people who work for a living generally don't like giving people free stuff at their own expense.
>Is that how fucked up the economy is now or how bad it was in 2008? That is kinda the definition of what happens during a housing crisis.
I'm not sure. I should have asked.
>When were democrats in favor of a wall? I was 14 a decade ago, so I never was for anything like that.
under Obama.
>Maybe he is just a centrist that realizes none of the two options fit him perfectly
probably. but a centrist who is a card-carrying Democrat.

Anonymous (ID: ee373c)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  283436

Between this and the already signed Georgia law on banning abortion, this is all leading to a massive attempt to overthrow Roe v. Wade in the coming year. Either law could be pushed into the Supreme Court on the fast track and ruled on well before the next election. That, or the court could chose to not hear the cases until after the election and any changes to the government happen.

My money says that Roe v. Wade will stand despite the efforts at the state level to overturn it, no matter how much the anti-abortion forces rant and rail over the issue. For now, it sucks to be a woman in the Southern states that are pushing for similar laws.

Cato (ID: 830f56)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  283439

File: 1558050724248.jpg (185.69 KB, 693x792, 9af6338eb8a85f13299247f29c252e…)

>>283435
But all evidence shows that the bailouts ended up working.

The national debt is not something that can actually be paid off, so it isn't a big deal.
Along with that, Trump has increased the national debt by a bit over 2 trillion dollars in his first two years of office while the economy has been doing well the whole time and Oboma increased it by a bit over 3 in the first two years when he had to deal with that same major downturn that I mentioned earlier. If that is your reason to hate Obama, should probably hate Trump for the same thing.

Who is getting free stuff?
And working people pay the smallest portion of wellfare, so they don't have to worry about that at all.

Yeah, this is just what some old guy is saying without considering the situation the country was in at the time. If you had to blame a president for his house being hard to sell, blame Bush because the downturn started in his administration

Since when does increased border security = a wall across the entire border?

literally anyone can be a card-carrying democrat. Like I said, someone who is more attached to titles than policies

Starshine!Laura/wmXM (ID: 41272d)Country code: lunachan.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  283440

File: 1558050787863.jpg (348.25 KB, 815x718, mpv-shot0033.jpg)

>>283430
>Yeah, who needs airplanes... We can just take the train to Europe.
Airplanes for international travel make sense. Domestic flights? Waste of money, non-renewable resources, and horrible for the planet. I'm probably somewhat biased because I hate flying, but like...who doesn't? It's a huge hassle. I live in Colorado and if I had the option to fly to New York or to go to New York by train, I would 100% choose the train. Trains are really nice.

>disagree on the first

Why so?

>but he isn't a republican. he's complaining about his own party.

Well, if he says he "wishes he could vote for a Democrat again"...has he just not been voting? Or has he been voting for third parties on everything?

>>283432
Stereotyping Alabama as a backwards hick shithole isn't really useful. Ohio is also implementing anti-abortion laws that are only marginally less draconian than this one. The deep south may have a higher concentration of these ultra socially conservative boomer politicians, but it certainly doesn't have a monopoly on them. To write it off as an Alabama problem is to disregard the Alabamians who oppose this nonsense, and to turn a blind eye to the same kinds of mentalities forming in our own backyards.

(ID: 5c0642)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  283443

File: 1558051035075.png (324.2 KB, 468x691, 4554867878.png)

>>283440
>I would 100% choose the train. Trains are really nice.
same

Cato (ID: 830f56)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  283447

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>>283440
Do you know how much time it would take to go between Colorado and NY by train?

It makes sense for most countries to have trains, but the US is so uniquely large that they are pretty impractical in comparison and wouldn't even save that many non-renewable resources if run as constantly as they would have to

!XSAILBoatg (ID: 97b7fe)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  283450

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>>283439
>But all evidence shows that the bailouts ended up working.
for whom?
>The national debt is not something that can actually be paid off, so it isn't a big deal.
not sure I follow you there. unless you think we're too powerful and can just keep borrowing forever because we're the global hegemon.
>Along with that, Trump has increased the national debt by a bit over 2 trillion dollars in his first two years of office while the economy has been doing well the whole time and Oboma increased it by a bit over 3 in the first two years when he had to deal with that same major downturn that I mentioned earlier. If that is your reason to hate Obama, should probably hate Trump for the same thing.
I don't like that Trump has continued the trend, though if you adjust for inflation, you have to admit that 2 trillion today is not the same as 2 trillion in 2008.
And this whole "they do it, too" argument is a really bad argument.
>Who is getting free stuff?
depends on who you're asking.
>And working people pay the smallest portion of wellfare, so they don't have to worry about that at all.
another weird argument. Just because someone else foots the bill, doesn't mean that it doesn't concern you, especially when that someone else is an important part of the same economy that you're involved in.
>Yeah, this is just what some old guy is saying without considering the situation the country was in at the time. If you had to blame a president for his house being hard to sell, blame Bush because the downturn started in his administration
Bush? no. the repeal of Glass-Steagall in 1999 under Clinton, yes.
worked out great for the investor class...
>Since when does increased border security = a wall across the entire border?
dunno, ask Obama.
>literally anyone can be a card-carrying democrat. Like I said, someone who is more attached to titles than policies
sure.
>>283440
>Airplanes for international travel make sense.
not according to AOC
>Domestic flights? Waste of money, non-renewable resources, and horrible for the planet. I'm probably somewhat biased because I hate flying, but like...who doesn't? It's a huge hassle. I live in Colorado and if I had the option to fly to New York or to go to New York by train, I would 100% choose the train. Trains are really nice.
Yeah, trains are nice. if you've got 24-48 hours to make it somewhere. Are you prepared to say no one, under any circumstances, is allowed to travel cross country faster than that?
>>disagree on the first
>Why so?
Because this isn't the United States of California and New York.
>Well, if he says he "wishes he could vote for a Democrat again"...has he just not been voting? Or has he been voting for third parties on everything?
I didn't ask. He's just pissed at his own party.

Cato (ID: 830f56)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  283458

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>>283450
The fact that the economy stabalized and is now doing well? Something had to go right for that to happen, and it started before Trump showed up.

>national debt

I am not great at explaining it, but "national debt" is basically something that can't be defaulted on because the result would be the colapse in the entire world's economy. Most major foreign currencies are standardized on the dollar and since the dollar is not standardized by gold, the dollar losing its value would be catastrophic for everyone.

>debt increasing

The terms I gave you were standardized for inflation.

>free

I am asking you

>doesn't concern you

I disagree, if you actually balance it out, something like anyone below $100k a year gets more benefit for their money than what they actually put in.

The investor class is literally the republican party, though. See: Trunp

>ask obama

It didn't, obama never wanted a wall in the sense that the old guy told you. That is just a blatant lie

Cato (ID: 830f56)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  283461

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>>283450
>Not according to AOC

Bullshit
Did you actually read anything that she wrote?

Starshine!Laura/wmXM (ID: 41272d)Country code: lunachan.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  283462

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>>283439
>Since when does increased border security = a wall across the entire border?
It is true that Obama and Clinton (as senators) both voted in favor of a bill that built several hundred miles of fencing along the Southern border. Looking back to the 90's, it was also Bill Clinton who passed IIRIRA, which made immigration law in the US drastically more draconian than it had been.

https://www.vox.com/2016/4/28/11515132/iirira-clinton-immigration

This law is why I can't smoke weed even in "legal" states. Bill Clinton made it an "aggravated felony".

>>283447
I'm okay with it taking longer. Trains can go over 200mph nowadays. Denver to NYC is ~1780 miles. 1780 miles divided by, say, 160 mph, is about 11 hours. A flight is about 3 hours and 45 minutes. Faster, but is 11 hours in greater comfort, with greater freedom to move around, better amenities, less hassle getting through security, and better cost, really that bad of a deal?

And even if replacing all domestic air travel with trains is unfeasible, I still think we'd benefit from having a more robust railroad system.

>>283450
>not according to AOC
https://www.politifact.com/florida/statements/2019/feb/28/rick-scott/no-green-new-deal-doesnt-ban-air-travel-florida-se/
>"overhauling transportation systems in the United States to eliminate pollution and 19 greenhouse gas emissions from the transportation sector as much as is technologically feasible." According to an overview of the resolution, this will be accomplished, in part, by "build[ing] out highspeed rail at a scale where air travel stops becoming necessary."
Obviously traveling to Europe by train is not "technologically feasible" and nobody is saying "ban airplanes right the fuck now". You fell for a spin, my dude.

>Are you prepared to say no one, under any circumstances, is allowed to travel cross country faster than that?

Certainly not. But that's not what the Green New Deal is saying either.

>Because this isn't the United States of California and New York.

California makes up 12% of the population. New York (the state) makes up 5.9%. They're also not the only blue states.

Cato (ID: cb836d)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  283464

>>283462
Several hundred miles of fencing is markedly not a wall across the entire border. Nobody, not even Democrats today, have been against border security

!XSAILBoatg (ID: 97b7fe)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  283472

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>>283458
>The fact that the economy stabalized and is now doing well? Something had to go right for that to happen, and it started before Trump showed up.
I would say that's in spite of the bailouts, not because of them. All the bailouts did was extend the bubbles.

>I am not great at explaining it, but "national debt" is basically something that can't be defaulted on because the result would be the colapse in the entire world's economy. Most major foreign currencies are standardized on the dollar and since the dollar is not standardized by gold, the dollar losing its value would be catastrophic for everyone.

That's true, but given that there are some nations that have a vested interest in this happening, for leverage if nothing else, it isn't the non-issue you seem to think it is.

>The terms I gave you were standardized for inflation.

Then yes, I'd say Trump should be reining things in.

>I am asking you

It's a long and varied answer.

>I disagree, if you actually balance it out, something like anyone below $100k a year gets more benefit for their money than what they actually put in.

In what sense? Are you counting roads? infrastructure? What benefits exactly?

>The investor class is literally the republican party, though. See: Trunp

There's a reason they donate to both sides.

>It didn't, obama never wanted a wall in the sense that the old guy told you. That is just a blatant lie

see Starshine's response: >>283462

>>283461
>Did you actually read anything that she wrote?
nope.

>>283462 you got me there. I haven't actually read her proposals, because her positions are nonsensical, so I'll take someone's word for it if they say "AOC said something stupid" because it seems more reasonable than her saying something that makes sense.
>California makes up 12% of the population. New York (the state) makes up 5.9%. They're also not the only blue states.
That's true, but I think you get the point.

>>283464 700 miles (the distance of the proposed fence) is just over 1/3 of the entire border. That's pretty significant. If the point of contention is wasting money in the desert, then you'd have a point. but that isn't the point of contention, is it? Because the 700-mile wall has the exact same purpose as Trump's full wall. Pretending it doesn't is just that - pretending.

Starshine!Laura/wmXM (ID: 7ed37b)Country code: ponychan.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  283484

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I think a lot of Americans don't like public transport just because the public transport we do have tends to be dogshit. But it doesn't have to be this way. Our public transport sucks because we don't fund it, but we don't fund it because it sucks...

>>283464
It is a bit of a false equivalence, but to be honest, I think even the fencing was an attempt to treat a symptom rather than the problem. The best solution to illegal immigration is to reform legal immigration. Unfortunately, calls for doing so tend to get smeared as "open borders" and "letting in rapists, drug dealers, thieves". Border security is important, but the need for it is greatly exacerbated by the convoluted and largely luck-based immigration system we have in place. The visa lottery needs to be replaced with something more merit-based (though not necessarily exclusionary toward unskilled workers -- by "merit-based" I mostly mean screening for terrorism and criminality) and we need a higher cap, if any at all.

>>283472
>I haven't actually read her proposals, because her positions are nonsensical, so I'll take someone's word for it if they say "AOC said something stupid"
Curious. You know her positions are nonsensical, despite apparently not actually knowing what her positions are, instead allowing hearsay to inform your opinion of her.

>but I think you get the point

I don't, actually. The point you seem to be making is that cities and more densely populated areas will dominate elections, but statistics suggest otherwise. Census data from 2016 shows that Americans living in rural and "mostly rural" counties make up roughly half of the country's population. Firm defenders of the electoral college point to county maps of the US and say "imagine if those tiny blue regions overruled all the massive red regions", as if the sizes of geographic regions are what determines fairness in an election. I'm not necessarily adamant about eliminating the electoral college altogether, but the reasoning people generally use to defend it is flawed on many levels.

!XSAILBoatg (ID: 97b7fe)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  283488

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>>283484
>Curious. You know her positions are nonsensical, despite apparently not actually knowing what her positions are, instead allowing hearsay to inform your opinion of her.
I looked into some of her positions. and when they all proved to be nonsensical, I stopped looking further.
>I don't, actually.
Yes, I'm not talking about cities specifically. I'm talking about regional differences.

Cato (ID: 830f56)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  283500

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>>283472
>In spite of the bailouts
There isn't really any data for this, so I guess we will never know if they actually helped or hurt. The only real fact is that the downturn ended after the bailouts were enacted.

>Isn't the non-issue

Who has that vested interest?

I am still asking you

>In what sense

I dont actually have the data to support that, so I will rescend it. At least half of our taxes goes to the military, though. It's not all that money is making my life better any more than reducing the number of hobos walking around for a fraction of that cost

>There is a reason they donate to both sides

But we are discussing why someone has to vote republican now. them donating to both sides means the whole investor class argument doesn't apply

See my response to Starshine >>283464
And your response to it is silly. The point of the argument against trump's wall is entirely that it is wasting money in the desert
700 miles of fence =/= 2100 miles of tall concrete wall, which is exactly what he was proposing. 700 miles of fence did not require 5 billion dollars. Saying the two are the same is inane.

>AOC

The thing that you said she said is something she never actually said, see Starshine's response.

>>283462
Trains time!
Let's break this down.
Your number is actually ok if you were driving on roads, but new rail lines would have to be built at $1-2 millon per mile and having near-direct lines between every city would be impractical. The I-80 route is near direct, but let's say that the train route would have to actually go through Chicago and Cleveland, adding ~220 miles to the route to make an easy number to play with.
That would mean that the track alone, without any of the other infrastructure to go along with the lines or labor/etc would cost between $200 and $400 million dollars.
http://www.acwr.com/economic-development/railroads-101/rail-siding-costs

Now, the number of people being transported. If I look at NY to Denver on 10/08/2019 there are 3 direct flights. Same number going the other direction. Let's say that the average domestic ariplane would be a 737, so 143 seats per plane. This is a very conservative estimate, as the flights would be between two major cities and probably larger.

So, at minimum, not including anyone traveling through connections, you would have to transport 858 people per day between the two cities.

Are you going to do that all packed into one 11 hour train ride or space it out, but add more weight to the train by including aminities, meaning that people will have to be ok with leaving at ungodly hours in the night or arriving at ungodly hours in the morning.

Now, when it comes to fuel economy, according to the two links below, a 737 is between 65 and 103 mpg per person, depending on model.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_economy_in_aircraft#Commuter_flights

This one says that the passenger trains have an average of 71 mpg per person with a maximum of 189.
https://truecostblog.com/2010/05/27/fuel-efficiency-modes-of-transportation-ranked-by-mpg/

Both are actually pretty comparable, but you have to take into account that an airplane will be taking the shorter straight-line distance.

tldr:
Tracks cost a lot, would probably have to actually link cities, making traveling distance longer.
Lots of people move between the cities, have to choose between less comfort for better times or more comfort for lower fuel economy per person and shittier times for some.
Per person fuel economy is not all that different when comparing trains to planes, and planes don't have to go as far.

Cato (ID: 830f56)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  283501

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>>283484
I mean, it is absolutely a false equivalency when you are considering the cost..
You can't really compare the two administrations on that front

North Korean Food (ID: 791e94)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  283513

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>>283424
>Perhaps not completely abolish the electoral college (although I am sympathetic to this position)
lol, the electoral college isn't going to be abolished any time in the foreseeable future. Doing so would require a Constitutional amendment, which requires ratification by 3/4 of the states. Do you think the small states are just going to give up the extra power that they get from the electoral college?

(ID: 5c0642)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  283514

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>>283513
>Doing so would require a Constitutional amendment, which requires ratification by 3/4 of the states.
you, you know your stuff

congress has no power to abolish it
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Starshine!Laura/wmXM (ID: 7ed37b)Country code: ponychan.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  283515

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>>283488
Which ones in particular do you find nonsensical?

>I'm talking about regional differences

Consider also that many of these counties may be "red" or "blue" by fairly narrow margins. And even taking into account that California and Georgia are drastically different states with different cultures and needs, on what grounds is it more fair for a national election on an issue that affects every person in the country to not favor what most people nationwide voted for?

All that aside, making democracy more direct doesn't necessarily mean getting rid of the electoral college. It could also mean enabling increased citizen participation in legislature. Consider the Swiss popular initiative system, where each citizen can propose an amendment to the constitution, which is held to a vote if it collects enough signatures, and passed by double majority.

>>283500
This is really long and I'm about to go do some yard work, but I'll read it afterward.

>>283501
Yeah, looking at it purely from the standpoint of cost, it's definitely not comparable. I do think there is a lot of validity to the claim that the Democratic Party weren't always as progressive on immigration as they seemingly are now, though -- that's the kernel of merit to the "Obama and Hillary wanted a wall too" argument.

>>283513
Probably not. Which is unfortunate, because it makes national elections objectively less fair. But it can at least be reformed. Like I said, reforming districting to curtail gerrymandering is a good place to start.

North Korean Food (ID: 791e94)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  283517

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>>283440
>Airplanes for international travel make sense. Domestic flights?
For me, visiting family on the west coast would take 2 and half days by train, 38 hours by car, or a mere 6 hours by plane. Guess which transportion option I use. I'll vote for bad orange man over anyone who wants to take away my plane travel.

Mk17(phone)!!Trixie (ID: 7ab8ff)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  283520

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>>283350
>ObamaCare forbade companies from denying coverage of pre-existing conditions.
I dont understand the correlation you are trying to make here in the context of what we are talking about.
You would deny these mothers private insurance?

>I'd make a distinction between acute emergencies (where there is no time to verify insurance status) and expensive chronic long-term care.

So what do you do with all the baby carcasses?

Cato (ID: 830f56)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  283522

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>>283515
I included a teal deer at the end specifically so you didn't have to read the whole thing!

Anonymous (ID: fbfc2e)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  283537

>>283520
>You would deny these mothers private insurance
Companies would of course be able to offer insurance. They would likely price it so that the expected benefit of the insurance is less than its cost, just like all true insurance. (The purpose of insurance is to decrease the variance, not the expected value.)

Anonymous (ID: fbfc2e)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  283538

>>283520
>So what do you do with all the baby carcasses?
I generally think cremation is the best way to dispose of dead bodies.

!XSAILBoatg (ID: 97b7fe)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  283544

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>>283500
>The only real fact is that the downturn ended after the bailouts were enacted.
Correlation does not imply causation.
>Who has that vested interest?
definitely China. possibly Russia. possibly the EU.
>I am still asking you
corporations and so-called low income families
>At least half of our taxes goes to the military, though. It's not all that money is making my life better any more than reducing the number of hobos walking around for a fraction of that cost
I agree with you that military spending is too high.
>But we are discussing why someone has to vote republican now. them donating to both sides means the whole investor class argument doesn't apply
If Hillary won, we could have this same argument with one word swapped. It literally doesn't matter. The corporations get their kickbacks regardless.
>The point of the argument against trump's wall is entirely that it is wasting money in the desert
No? It's generally "it's racist" - somehow more-se than the Democrat fence, but I digress.
>700 miles of fence =/= 2100 miles of tall concrete wall, which is exactly what he was proposing.
No one is talking about a concrete wall at this point. You might be arguing against campaign rhetoric.
>700 miles of fence did not require 5 billion dollars. Saying the two are the same is inane.
True, a literal chain-link fence doesn't require 5 billion dollars. but you know what? I'm willing to pay $5bn, because it's a statement. That statement is "We're not putting up with this bullshit any more." and that is priceless.
Also, you aren't considering the savings wrt people who choose not to cross, as there is now an obvious physical barrier against doing so.
>The thing that you said she said is something she never actually said, see Starshine's response.
got it.
>>283515
>Which ones in particular do you find nonsensical?
1) she's a literal socialist
2) no understanding of minimum wage
3) single-payer healthcare
4) free tuition for all
5) abolish ICE
6) a new New Deal (not the Green one)

>on what grounds is it more fair for a national election on an issue that affects every person in the country to not favor what most people nationwide voted for?

because there are issues that do not effect the entire country, or disproportionately effect some areas more than others, and your alternative encourages drowning out these voices in a sea of people who don't care.

>All that aside, making democracy more direct doesn't necessarily mean getting rid of the electoral college. It could also mean enabling increased citizen participation in legislature. Consider the Swiss popular initiative system, where each citizen can propose an amendment to the constitution, which is held to a vote if it collects enough signatures, and passed by double majority.

This happens at the state level, now.
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Mk17(phone)!!Trixie (ID: 7ab8ff)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  283545

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>>283537
But why is that part of the ACA in conflict with your idea?
Unless you want companies to be able to deny people, including babaies, with pre existing conditions.

>>283538
You had a chance to solve world hunger and didnt take it.

Cato (ID: 830f56)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  283553

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>>283544
Correlation specifically does imply causation, doesn't mean causation. But either way, that is why the first half of my statement before that exists.

None of those three could survive without the US

Why are they so-called low income families?

>corporations got kickbacks regardless

The whole point is the guy who cant be a democrat anymore, though.

He switched to steel slats a year after he was president. He wanted $5 billion for his steel slats. The fencing Obama put up did not cost anywhere near that much. There really isn't any argument there.

I don't care if you want to make a statement, that is not at all what we were discussing. The point with the wall was that you were saying democrats shouldn't complain about Trump's wall because they also "built a wall" under obama. The $5 billion for your statement means that the two are blatantly different
I have no idea what you mean by starving people

>Got it

You are basing your whole argument on a lie, then!

!XSAILBoatg (ID: 97b7fe)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  283566

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>>283553 can imply. doesn't necessarily. but yes, I agree we'll never know.

China definitely can. The rest of the world also can, with some difficulty.

because people game the system.

I honestly lost track of what you were saying. If your point is that both sides are corrupt, I agree. As far as which side is more corrupt, I think that's debatable.

Steel slats are a lot harder to breach with a pair of cheap wire cutters. I'd personally go with the slats.

If Trump proposed the exact same wall the Dem's proposed years ago, across the entire border, do you think the Dem's would go with it? I highly doubt this has anything to do with the specifics of the materials involved at this point. You know it. I know it. Everyone knows it.

I hear Mexico has food.

I'm saying I read Starshine's post. She made some good points wrt the Green New Deal. but I still think AOC is certifiably insane and the fact she didn't specifically say she wanted to ban intercontinental flight doesn't restore any of my lost faith in her.
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Cato (ID: 830f56)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  283569

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>>283566
China relies on its exports more than anybody

The majority of them don't, but there also isn't good data on that because all reporting is on 'bad eggs'

Yeah, I think both are corrupt and specifically in that line of reasoning with rich people you can't objective choose one over the other. I subjectively think the republicans are more corrupt because the Coch brothers are on their side

It doesn't matter what I think and it doesn't matter that one is more impenetrable, the point is that you can't say that dems should just go with what trump did because they "did the exact same things a few years ago"
What Obama did was markedly different than what Trump was proposing, so it is a false equivalency.

Mexico does have food, yes. I lie mexico food.

What are you basing her being insane on, Fox reporting? The Green New Deal is a relatively short report which basically just set some long-term goals that nobody should really have a problem with.

!XSAILBoatg (ID: 97b7fe)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  283574

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>>283569
>China relies on its exports more than anybody
China uses its trade leverage for political reasons, at the expense of its populace. It doesn't need to trade with anyone. It would be perfectly fine if the USA got wiped off the map.

>The majority of them don't, but there also isn't good data on that because all reporting is on 'bad eggs'

I'm just saying, international trade existed pre-1930.

>Yeah, I think both are corrupt and specifically in that line of reasoning with rich people you can't objective choose one over the other.

I agree.
>I subjectively think the republicans are more corrupt because the Coch brothers are on their side
I'm not a fan of them, either. But for the left, I'm not a fan of Soros. So it's 6 of one, half a dozen of the other as far as I'm concerned. but then, I'm a centrist.

>It doesn't matter what I think and it doesn't matter that one is more impenetrable, the point is that you can't say that dems should just go with what trump did because they "did the exact same things a few years ago"

True, they are welcome to change their minds. Why they do or don't change their minds is important, though. And let's be honest here, obstructionism is the reason, not the cost. $5bn is a drop in the bucket when it comes to federal spending.

>What Obama did was markedly different than what Trump was proposing, so it is a false equivalency.

Ok, I'll give you that.

>Mexico does have food, yes. I lie mexico food.

same. So the notion that people who can't make it across the border illegally, are doomed to starvation, just doesn't hold up to scrutiny.

>What are you basing her being insane on, Fox reporting?

the positions I listed >>283544

>The Green New Deal is a relatively short report which basically just set some long-term goals that nobody should really have a problem with.

tell that to the AFL-CIO. I thought Dems were all about supporting unions and workers? huh, maybe not.
This post was edited by its author on .

vynn (ID: af2b18)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  283587

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>>283484
>I think a lot of Americans don't like public transport just because the public transport we do have tends to be dogshit. But it doesn't have to be this way. Our public transport sucks because we don't fund it, but we don't fund it because it sucks...
We also decided living in the suburbs was the best idea ever. We need to drive to public transport and at that point we might as well drive the rest of the way ourselves.

Snowbell (ID: c2093e)Country code: pittsburgh.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  283592

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>>283574
>It would be perfectly fine if the USA got wiped off the map.

Well if by "perfectly fine" you mean that basically their entire population would have to revert to subsistence farming then I suppose.

!XSAILBoatg (ID: 97b7fe)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  283598

File: 1558061201298.png (478.59 KB, 1024x1024, 576143.png)

>>283592 Do you think that's any worse than what they do now?

Cato (ID: 830f56)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  283602

File: 1558061448430.jpg (24.38 KB, 400x400, 4826413d7b01583637bc3482a4e6dc…)

>>283598
I can't tell if this is the most racist or just uninformed thing I have ever heard you say

Snowbell (ID: c2093e)Country code: pittsburgh.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  283605

File: 1558061670011.png (629.15 KB, 720x720, 1550194460381.png)

>>283598

Nah, but China tends to be second only to Africa when it comes to quality of life for any random peasant.

!XSAILBoatg (ID: 97b7fe)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  283626

File: 1558062948465.jpg (165.66 KB, 650x800, 576705.jpg)

>>283602 has nothing to do with race. a serf is a serf, whether they're in a factory or in a field
>>283605 exactly

Cato (ID: 830f56)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  283650

File: 1558065504000.jpg (19.07 KB, 500x281, 027.jpg)

>>283626
uninformed, then

You should probably go visit China or see just how rough subsistence farming is. I am working 10-12 hour days, does that mean that I would do just as well on a farm?

!XSAILBoatg (ID: 97b7fe)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  283655

File: 1558065689583.png (478.59 KB, 1024x1024, 576143.png)

>>283650 I'm not literally talking about subsistence. but China can turn its markets inward, if it wanted to. but it doesn't. so it builds its trade power on the backs of its citizens. If you want to point to a nation that's doing it right, there's another nation bordering it, with similar population, that doesn't completely repress its people as a matter of course just to benefit The Party. hint: it's India

Cato (ID: 830f56)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  283663

File: 1558065996684.jpg (47.09 KB, 544x680, 0b3138f15b983a2c024f0b2a2015e5…)

>>283655
That is what you said, though.

And it could turn its markets inward, but it would come at great cost and actually lead a large portion of the population to subsistance farming because they already have to import so much food.

Even India has this problem. Without their international trade, they would not be able to sustain anything near where they are going now

North Korean Food (ID: 791e94)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  283685

File: 1558068261256.jpg (41.69 KB, 670x795, india-1518065168209.jpg)

>>283655
India can't even poo in the loo though

!XSAILBoatg (ID: 97b7fe)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  283689

File: 1558068476676.png (71.98 KB, 263x262, 139525869841.png)

>>283663 yeah, I was being hyperbolic. my apologies.

In that case, why is China so incredibly inefficient at producing food?

Let's assume that's true. Is India willing to throw its entire population under the bus, at the cost of tens of millions of lives, to serve the purposes of its single-party government? because China certainly is. And as I said, international trade has been a thing for centuries. It doesn't need the dollar to continue.

I'm playing League, so my responses will be slow.

Mk17(phone)!!Trixie (ID: 7ab8ff)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  283691

File: 1558068989774.png (202.45 KB, 407x415, 12dfgdf.PNG)

It seems like you guys keep referring to subsistance farming as a negitive thing.
Whats the problem with having a family farm?
I subsistance farm, so does my sister.

!XSAILBoatg (ID: 97b7fe)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  283693

File: 1558070165886.png (94.14 KB, 935x720, 576139.png)

>>283691 because you can't buy the latest iPhone with food you've eaten, so it's just objectively inferior

Ika (ID: 1a97fc)Country code: mx, country type: geoip, valid: 1  283695

File: 1558070268680.png (854.77 KB, 809x833, 91a1edd547558810fb0ba5e5492177…)

>>283691
>>282365
>From abortion to farming
You guys don't need me anymore, this is some advanced shitposting right here.

North Korean Food (ID: 791e94)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  283696

>>283691
I think "subsistence farming" in poor countries usually means that you're one drought away from literal starvation.

Mk17(phone)!!Trixie (ID: 7ab8ff)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  283700

File: 1558070587184.png (110.73 KB, 183x295, 403073455.PNG)

>>283693
Well, i think its something thats going to come in handy soon.
You can have a real comfy life farming atm considering how much tech is available.
I wish more people would do it, kinda would solve a lot of these climate and obesity problems. I suspect depression too.

>>283696
Yeah, i guess if it was primary and not supplementary.

!XSAILBoatg (ID: 97b7fe)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  283701

File: 1558070795786.png (197.44 KB, 1280x1000, 234567.png)

>>283700 agreed

(ID: 5c0642)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  283702

File: 1558070860538.png (409.38 KB, 579x682, 7768798987.png)

>states ignoring federal case law
is this really anything new?

i agree that this law is disgusting

but states tend to do this all the time
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Mk17(phone)!!Trixie (ID: 7ab8ff)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  283703

File: 1558071184087.png (306.01 KB, 447x598, 1549777040110.png)

>>283695
Its this hot new craze the kids are raving about called a conversation.

Starshine!Laura/wmXM (ID: 41272d)Country code: lunachan.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  283716

File: 1558076505570.jpg (260.05 KB, 1536x2048, D2vgsEnUcAEmNrp.jpeg)

>>283500
Hmm. Yeah, I suppose that does make sense. Can't argue with that math.

It does bear mentioning, however, that overnight train rides are not uncommon in Europe -- and they can actually be quite comfortable. Much better than redeye flights, arguably.

Costwise, it's probably not something we can expect in the near future. But I still think it's something worth establishing infrastructure for long-term.

>>283544
>1) she's a literal socialist
She's a self-described socialist. In America, that translates to a social democratic platform. Let me know when her platform includes "abolish private property".
>2) no understanding of minimum wage
How so?
>3) single-payer healthcare
I don't see how something that is standard in pretty much the entire rest of the civilized world is "nonsensical". What's far more nonsensical to me is pharmaceutical price gouging (a phenomenon that only occurs in the US to such an absurd extent) and the fact that 30 million Americans don't have healthcare. I'd call it not only nonsensical, but disgraceful.
>4) free tuition for all
I don't want to get into this one right now, but I think this particular discussion is a bit more complicated than just "college should be free" or "college shouldn't be free". Post-secondary education as a whole is a major can of worms.
>5) abolish ICE
Yes, for the love of God, please abolish ICE. Take most of the rest of the three letter agencies out with it. Press S to spit on this part of the Bush administration's legacy.
>6) a new New Deal (not the Green one)
I don't know much about this one.

!XSAILBoatg (ID: 97b7fe)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  283729

File: 1558078216565.png (279.22 KB, 1208x1024, 5761451.png)

>>283716
>She's a self-described socialist. In America, that translates to a social democratic platform. Let me know when her platform includes "abolish private property".
she is a proud member of the Democratic Socialists of America, whose platform is quite literally socialism.
>How so?
She doesn't understand the difference between minimum wage, living wage, or how minimum wage effects labor demand and cost of living. Start there.
>I don't see how something that is standard in pretty much the entire rest of the civilized world is "nonsensical".
because we already spend too much on healthcare. why the fuck are we looking to spend even more?
>What's far more nonsensical to me is pharmaceutical price gouging (a phenomenon that only occurs in the US to such an absurd extent)
This is what happens when you go out of your way to prevent any sort of free market from existing, while simultaneously guaranteeing to pay any price that is asked of you.
>and the fact that 30 million Americans don't have healthcare. I'd call it not only nonsensical, but disgraceful.
I don't have healthcare, and I'm just fine with it. don't need your nanny state. but don't charge me money to give it to some other asshole who also deserves it no more than I do.
>I don't want to get into this one right now, but I think this particular discussion is a bit more complicated than just "college should be free" or "college shouldn't be free". Post-secondary education as a whole is a major can of worms.
sure.
>Yes, for the love of God, please abolish ICE. Take most of the rest of the three letter agencies out with it. Press S to spit on this part of the Bush administration's legacy.
Look, if you want to abolish "ICE", sure. Who do you propose handles their job once they're gone? Who handles deportations? If your answer is "no one" then that's retarded. And for most people who want to abolish ICE, they have no other solution - they just simply want the USA to never deport anyone, ever.
>I don't know much about this one.
guaranteed government jobs for everyone!!!11!1
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Anonymous (ID: e9b418)Country code: windows9x.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  283750

>>283716
Why the fuck are you arguing with Sailboat?

!XSAILBoatg (ID: 97b7fe)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  283765

File: 1558082597758.png (478.59 KB, 1024x1024, 576143.png)

>>283750 Don't you have a welfare check to pick up or something?

Anonymous (ID: e9b418)Country code: windows9x.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  283773

>>283765
No. Are you projecting? Maybe you hate immigrants because you think they're gonna take your welfare away.

!XSAILBoatg (ID: 97b7fe)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  283775

File: 1558086202198.png (152.74 KB, 1199x1024, 1395273824166.png)

>>283773 You live in Finland and post on a pony image board. Surely that's enough to guarantee you some number of autismbux per month?

I'm not on any sort of welfare, thanks. I also don't hate immigrants. I hate people who take advantage of the system, because they do so at others' expense. Perhaps that's why you argue so vehemently for freeloaders - because you are one yourself.
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Anonymous (ID: e9b418)Country code: windows9x.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  283778

>>283775
Hell yeah dude, freeloading on that free university education.

Anonymous (ID: e9b418)Country code: windows9x.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  283784

EMF Crossbow Pone!.MinxyTeTI (ID: 167cfd)Country code: gb, country type: geoip, valid: 1  283788

File: 1558099409885.png (498.99 KB, 567x850, 'queen anne died in 1714, leav…)

I don't like talking about politics, and quite frankly most of the goings-on in this board don't interest me.

But universal healthcare is a basic human right in a civilized society, and if you think that the current American healthcare system is in any way adequate, you've either been well and truly gaslit by your government or you're a lunatic.

Mk17(phone)!!Trixie (ID: 7ab8ff)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  283793

File: 1558102010824.png (364.77 KB, 640x528, 1555694358303.png)

>>283788
I agree.
I think basic heath care should more or less be a public service like police, fire, and EMS.

The issue isnt that heathcare should be more accessible, its how do we get there.
Very easy to say what we want, but its a lot more complicated than that.

Do you have an idea of what the system would look like or how it would work?

>>283716
Didnt we just talk about how ice shouldnt be abolished, but rather their mission changed?

Lisbon (ID: 06af56)Country code: templeos.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  283798

LET ME IN
I'M 100% WHITE

Mint horse (ID: cfefcb)Country code: gb, country type: geoip, valid: 1  283800

File: 1558110012539.jpg (16.44 KB, 200x303, IMG_5507.JPG)

>>283798
>I'M 100% WHITE

(ID: 1848b7)Country code: amsterdam.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  283803

File: 1558113834476.jpg (5.88 KB, 225x225, images-9.jpeg)

Ah yes. Alabama. The most progressive of states...

(ID: 43322a)Country code: stallman.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  283804

File: 1558114925749.png (613.35 KB, 1000x1000, 1459744527304.png)

>>283803
The deep south stereotypes practically write themselves.

Anonymous (ID: 28e2a6)Country code: ponychan.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  283807

If Florida is America's dick, and Louisiana is America's asshole does that make Alabama and Mississippi the taint?

Anonymous (ID: 772551)Country code: windows9x.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  283846

>>283793
>lists things that are socialized
>thinks healthcare should be like that
>asks how it would work
c'mon m8

Mk17(phone)!!Trixie (ID: 7ab8ff)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  283852

File: 1558122471065.png (244.92 KB, 364x485, makmak.PNG)

>>283846
Another concise and thought provoking comment from my buddy!

Since you seem to think healthcare and law enforcment can work on the exact same model, please explain that system to me.

(ID: 55c3d4)Country code: amsterdam.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  283860

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>>283804
Only the best from the state that popularized the "Wife Beater" tank top.

Anonymous (ID: 772551)Country code: windows9x.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  283864

Anonymous (ID: 9ba490)Country code: ponychan.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  283865

>>283864
Unpopular opinion: taxation from above is always theft, but redistribution from beneath may not be.

!XSAILBoatg (ID: 97b7fe)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  283877

File: 1558126408532.png (478.59 KB, 1024x1024, 576143.png)

Unpopular opinion: Having a default position of spending limitless amounts of money to keep 80+ year old people alive, and then making the rest of society foot the bill, is ridiculous. We should let nature take its course. If you do that, then you can talk to me about the benefits of universal healthcare.

Ephemeral (ID: ddc709)Country code: dk, country type: geoip, valid: 1  283889

>>283877
I don't think universal healthcare ever reasonably implies universal coverage of everything for everyone?

I'm fairly certain the WHO doesn't define it this way, and any country which currently claims to have universal health care doesn't operate this way either.

The general idea is often to seek equality of opportunity regarding access to a healthy life, through subsidisation and coverage of some aspects of health care costs, but not all.

!XSAILBoatg (ID: 97b7fe)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  283892

File: 1558128340765.png (54.36 KB, 500x500, h88648918.png)

>>283889 apparently you aren't familiar with how things work in the US, now, under our non-universal healthcare system.

Anonymous (ID: 2be10b)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  283893

>>283877
I mean. Don't we do that already except it is only those people specifically getting universal healthcare?

Anonymous (ID: 9ba490)Country code: ponychan.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  283894

File: 1558128445994.jpg (73.29 KB, 768x768, flowey_1523691849896.jpg)

>>283889
Life-saving operations only, maybe?
More coverage towards issues that are more random and unfair, independent of life choices; and towards those that can surely be cured, rather than keeping alive for a limited time in prolonged but dulled agony?


Privatize the diagnostic aspect but nationalize the treatment. It's cartel-like enough as it is so wth.
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!XSAILBoatg (ID: 97b7fe)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  283895

File: 1558128515012.png (124.96 KB, 1013x1211, 1083581__safe_solo_cute_lookin…)

>>283893 If keeping people alive an extra week or two, at the cost of hundreds of thousands or millions of dollars, is what people want everyone to have access to when they say "universal healthcare", then that's the dumbest idea ever.

Ephemeral (ID: ddc709)Country code: dk, country type: geoip, valid: 1  283896

>>283892
I'll concede that I'm not

>>283894
>More coverage towards issues that are more random and unfair, independent of life choices; and towards those that can surely be cured, rather than keeping alive for a limited time in prolonged but dulled agony?
Yes, sure these are all good ideas.

It's probably best to go on a case by case basis from procedure to procedure.

I think you can easily make a system which also subsidizes diagnoses without it being a bad system. A few first world countries have Pyschiatrists and Doctors running private business where the government subsidizes the care provided through these businesses, as long as the care adheres to the standards and prices set by the government. This means that there's an incentive to provide fairly prices, standardized and egalitarian forms of care, but also means that some privatized forms of care are possible.

It can work pretty well, I think, but I'm not super educated on it.

>>283895
I mean it's true that that would be dumb, but does any significant portion of the population actually want this?

!XSAILBoatg (ID: 97b7fe)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  283897

>>283896 this is the status quo. until it is addressed, the notion of making it universal makes no sense to me.

Ephemeral (ID: ddc709)Country code: dk, country type: geoip, valid: 1  283900

>>283897
So what happens in america currently?

Care in the US is primarily covered by insurance companies as far as I know, right? So how do insurance companies end up spending hundreds of millions on single old people?
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Anonymous (ID: 9ba490)Country code: ponychan.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  283901

File: 1558129063617.png (568.77 KB, 1024x1280, a10.png)

>>283896
I'm firmly anti-subsidy for most things, tbh. If we're going to have the scarce fruits of our work stolen from us at gunpoint by Daddy State, it's at least better that they'd be directly redistributed to the truly poor and suffering, rather than recycled through all this bureaucratic and corporate machinery that leeches value at every step of the cycle to pay its cronies before an extremely tiny amount of value actually gets to the damn people whose lives would truly depend on it.
You could argue it was okay back in the day when Alex Hammy did it because our country may've needed a sturdy military-industrial base to rebuff potential European invaders, but I hate the guy and that time has passed anyway, even if the whole thing wasn't a ridiculous paranoia fest done to profit a rise of proto-fascism in our government. We've become such a monster. Fuck subsidy. Better to suffer a bit for lack of shelter than suffer at the hands of a giant, active, intelligent thieving-engine.

Ephemeral (ID: ddc709)Country code: dk, country type: geoip, valid: 1  283904

>>283901
This might be true for the US

I guess it depends a lot on the context you're in what's going to actually end up working out

!XSAILBoatg (ID: 97b7fe)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  283906

File: 1558129385816.png (111.1 KB, 641x345, 575066.PNG)

>>283900
>Care in the US is primarily covered by insurance companies as far as I know, right?
for those who have insurance, at least in part, yes. for all the other old people trying to stay alive that extra day or two, there's taxpayer funded Medicare.
>So how do insurance companies end up spending hundreds of millions on single old people?
because of the ridiculous rates demanded by the healthcare and pharmaceutical industries. I don't care so much about the insurance aspect, because that's opt-in, but for medicare, they're shaking down the taxpayers to pay for absurd measures at ridiculous rates. and its in the interest of the healthcare industry to keep doing so. The longer they keep people alive (hours, days, or minutes), and the more money they demand while doing so, the richer they can get.
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vynn (ID: 12d31b)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  283910

File: 1558129786633.jpg (392.69 KB, 950x720, 1518676226528.jpg)

Is it time to hate old people now?

Ephemeral (ID: ddc709)Country code: dk, country type: geoip, valid: 1  283911

>>283906
>I don't care so much about the insurance aspect, because that's opt-in, but for medicare, they're shaking down the taxpayers to pay for absurd measures at ridiculous rates. and its in the interest of the healthcare industry to keep doing so. The longer they keep people alive (hours, days, or minutes), and the more money they demand while doing so, the richer they can get.
This is obviously not a functional system if true.

Do you know of any concrete examples of stuff like this happening just so I can get an idea what we're talking about?

Lisbon (ID: 06af56)Country code: ca, country type: geoip, valid: 1  283912

old people burning old people burning
put your hands up
old people burning old people burning
that's kinda messed up

Mk17(p-hone) (ID: 1d5f51)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  283914

>>283864
Gee whiz. That's a fully formed plan on healthcare you got there. You really should be in charge.

Also my phone broke so I'm setting a new one up atm might not be around for a bit.

🐈🐈Dodger🐈🐈!FGiFL0Ecls (ID: 1d6b64)Country code: windows9x.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  283915

Jeb was gonna 9/11 all the old people to save money on healthcare but you didn't listen

Anonymous (ID: 9ba490)Country code: ponychan.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  283916

File: 1558130118086.jpg (58.14 KB, 381x381, burgerpants_literally_me.jpg)

>>283910
When the poor among the young are passively denied support, that is taken for granted.
When talk rises of pulling that same rug of support from under the older generation, is this any different?

To entitle one generation and not the other should not be a default position. It is not a stance skeptically assuming nothing, but assuming with no evidence that one generation has demonstrated more merit than another.
To attempt to quantify the merit of a generation who's run their gauntlet, and compare it to that of one yet coming of age to face their own challenges, is folly.

Bux for all or bux for none. You better have a damn sturdy justification for redistributing wealth to only some poor and not others. "They're old and can't support themselves" won't cut it for me if they hold disproportionate political power, and our country's chronic policy of burning the young's furniture to support the old might thus be implicated onto their political doings.

Ephemeral (ID: ddc709)Country code: dk, country type: geoip, valid: 1  283917

>>283910
I think there's an important distinction between looking at the aspects of a system that gives care to old people, and the aspects of a system which might artificially inflate costs for such care.

I would hope most people could have a reasonable conversation about how to provide good care to an elderly population, while attempting to somewhat minimize the costs of such care for everyone else.

It's very reasonable to look at the ways in which systems fail to provide care efficiently, whereas it's probably less reasonable to look at whether or not any care should be provided at all.

🐈🐈Dodger🐈🐈!FGiFL0Ecls (ID: 1d6b64)Country code: windows9x.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  283918

>>283916
Old people's hospital bills are usually the responsibility of their families.

Anonymous (ID: 9ba490)Country code: ponychan.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  283921

>>283918
And I'd rather have to wash just my own grandparents' asses and share a tiny house with them than ever have to pay for the overdue fossil relatives of some sod I never knew when my own are long dead.

!XSAILBoatg (ID: 97b7fe)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  283922

File: 1558130833084.png (404.76 KB, 600x657, asadaffaf.png)

>>283911 just a quick summary from a quick search.
>Of the 2.6 million people who died in the U.S. in 2014, 2.1 million, or eight out of 10, were people on Medicare, making Medicare the largest insurer of medical care provided at the end of life. Spending on Medicare beneficiaries in their last year of life accounts for about 25% of total Medicare spending on beneficiaries age 65 or older. The fact that a disproportionate share of Medicare spending goes to beneficiaries at the end of life is not surprising given that many have serious illnesses or multiple chronic conditions and often use costly services, including inpatient hospitalizations, post-acute care, and hospice, in the year leading up to their death.
>>283916 yup
>>283918 not if they have Medicare. as virtually all do.
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🐈🐈Dodger🐈🐈!FGiFL0Ecls (ID: 1d6b64)Country code: windows9x.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  283925

>>283921
Ok, I wouldn't, that sounds nasty.
>>283922
For another year at least >:^)

Ephemeral (ID: ddc709)Country code: dk, country type: geoip, valid: 1  283927

>>283922
Yeah, alright, can't argue with these numbers. I did some googling myself, and it does sound like the system needs a serious overhaul.

I don't know if just dumping old people is the way to go, though. maybe there's a way to seek greater efficiency in the way care is provided and try to give people with serious medical conditions opportunities to pay for treatments that increase quality of life and chances of recovery without incurring unreasonable costs?

I think it's all well and good to want to effectivize, but it's probably also important to give consideration to the welfare of those less fortunate, since that is how we would all wish to be treated, if we were in their situation.

vynn (ID: 12d31b)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  283929

File: 1558131250515.jpg (124.78 KB, 628x621, Jahy shocked.jpg)

>>283916
>To entitle one generation and not the other should not be a default position.
>Bux for all or bux for none. You better have a damn sturdy justification for redistributing wealth to only some poor and not others.
I didn't get that from boat's posts at all so I'm not sure what you're riled up about.


>>283917
I'm for reasoning what is cost effective and good, not inflated care.

I'm not for treating elderly like an old model iPhone that should just get tossed in the dumpster because it isn't the newest model anymore. "Eh this thing ain't useful anymore, no reason to keep it alive".

If that wasn't his stance maybe I'm overreacting but damn did it come across that way.

Anonymous (ID: 9ba490)Country code: ponychan.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  283930

File: 1558131303336.jpg (84.25 KB, 1000x900, judge_flat1000x1000075fu1.jpg)

>>283925
It is nasty. Taxation is nastier. I mean, if you're not particularly talented. And if you're not great at generating more than enough money to spare when tax time comes around, taxes kept inhumanly high by these inefficient systems, and you can't even have the gratification of knowing that your artificially stifled quality of life isn't kept so in the name of helping people who are close to you, but strangers whose artificially spurred conflict with you for resources makes you spiritual enemies, rather than distant strangers.


>>283929
Because to the extent that I'm skeptical of the tax-forever-spend-forever paradigm we're under, and the expansion of it by adding universal healthcare without cutting anything else, I agree with him.
This post was edited by its author on .

🐈🐈Dodger🐈🐈!FGiFL0Ecls (ID: 1d6b64)Country code: windows9x.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  283931

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>>283930
I'm training in the healthcare field so I'm technically more capable of taking care of my family than most people should be expected to be. I still don't want to do it, that's what the government is for.

Ephemeral (ID: ddc709)Country code: dk, country type: geoip, valid: 1  283932

>>283929
I couldn't agree more

your compassion is well-placed, I think

!XSAILBoatg (ID: 97b7fe)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  283933

File: 1558131649023.png (715.15 KB, 941x850, 576144.png)

>>283925 and then what?
>>283927
>I did some googling myself, and it does sound like the system needs a serious overhaul.
glad we can agree on that. But the powers that be also have a vested interest in keeping things the way they are.
>I don't know if just dumping old people is the way to go, though. maybe there's a way to seek greater efficiency in the way care is provided and try to give people with serious medical conditions opportunities to pay for treatments that increase quality of life and chances of recovery without incurring unreasonable costs?
If you hear of a way, let me know. As it is now, I think 80 years old should just be default DNR, unless you opt-out with either your own cash, or private insurance. Stop making taxpayers pay for people whose time has come.
>I think it's all well and good to want to effectivize, but it's probably also important to give consideration to the welfare of those less fortunate, since that is how we would all wish to be treated, if we were in their situation.
depends on who you're referring to. Old people need to get over their fear of death, and the people keeping them alive also need to deal with it in a better way than keeping them alive at all costs.

Anonymous (ID: 9ba490)Country code: ponychan.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  283934

Gee, why do people get so angry when we use wittle extwa taxes to make wittle incwementaw impwovements to society's average quality of life? It's not like forking over the money is mandatory, or that it's violently enforced by the State's mercenary thugs who are already notorious for killing black people with no provocation. Don't they know? The same people who actively take money from you and decrease your quality of life will increase it too! We're a society, siwwy widdle kiddies!

vynn (ID: 12d31b)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  283942

🐈🐈Dodger🐈🐈!FGiFL0Ecls (ID: 1d6b64)Country code: windows9x.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  283945

File: 1558132494969.png (890.41 KB, 1000x1200, 64631036_p13.png)

Haha look at how mad he is, look at his face, he's seething, hahaha I'm cringing right now

Mk17(p-hone)!!Trixie (ID: 1d5f51)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  283968

File: 1558134551750.png (1011.62 KB, 1298x1305, 1533101717499.png)

>>283934
Are you having a stroke?

Anonymous (ID: 9ba490)Country code: ponychan.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  283972

File: 1558134692768.jpg (24.07 KB, 400x288, 495949.jpg)

>>283968
Eh, just drank a couple too many beers.

Does it take a stroke to realize that a right to life is no less spooky than a right to personal property?
Wanting to not have resources directly taken from your possession is just as materially self-interested as wanting a society where you have an ability to exist. It's called sane where a person in one places argues from a desperate need for resources, but not a person in another, somehow.
This post was edited by its author on .

Mk17(p-hone)!!Trixie (ID: 1d5f51)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  283979

File: 1558135009473.png (924.17 KB, 1329x1348, 1533002203912.png)

>>283972
No, it just takes a stroke to spell like that haha.

Anonymous (ID: 9ba490)Country code: ponychan.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  283980

File: 1558135061907.png (104.19 KB, 197x276, closed.png)

>>283979
Just as I thought, I should never attempt satire.

Mk17(p-hone)!!Trixie (ID: 1d5f51)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  284000

File: 1558137146237.png (289.14 KB, 521x498, 15846545454.PNG)

>>283980
There is a decent chance that the satire just went over my head tbh.

Anonymous (ID: 772551)Country code: windows9x.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  284131

>>283914
how the fuck do you think police get paid for? you say this isn't so simple but it really is

Mk17(p-hone)!!Trixie (ID: 447c5b)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  284154

File: 1558180816264.png (218.38 KB, 424x437, wsmwsm.PNG)

>>284131
Haha, yeah no shit Sherlock.

But wtf are you actually going to be paying for? What level of care will be provided? How will people access the system? How much will you have to raise the taxes in the first place? Can you make cuts elsewhere? How much should state doctors even be paid? How will you prevent fraud? How will you handle malpractice?
Should a state run system be run beside a private system? Will it provide just preventitive care or advanced care as well?

You say I'm simple, then your answer to "what should a public healthcare system look like" is ...taxes?

We all know taxes. You haven't contributed to the conversation. Which is pretty run of the mill for you I suppose.

Anonymous (ID: 772551)Country code: windows9x.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  284169

>>284154
Oh sorry, the general discussion is usually around if healthcare should be socialized at all.

Besides, some of those questions leap into budget management.

Also, nearly any answer to those questions makes it a no brainer, so waiting for nirvana is dumb. You can implement a new system asap to get rid of the profit motive and refine it later.

Off-topic: Why do you always attack my character when replying to me? Seems kind of weird for someone who doesn't like that.

Mk17(p-hone)!!Trixie (ID: 8cd30b)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  284172

File: 1558185639228.png (39.45 KB, 204x180, 021417.PNG)

>>284169
You shouldn't do anything that effects the lives of so many without a comprehensive plan and clear goals, or it will just be another mess and failure.


>Off-topic: Why do you always attack my character when replying to me?

I don't mean to. In fact I spend more time defending you than anything.

You get upset at the mildest attempt to match your rhetoric, and every attempt at being sincere with you has only lead to more insults from you.

Sorry if I came across as attacking you, it's never my intention to insult, I just matched your conversational tone.

North Korean Food (ID: 791e94)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  284173

>>284169
Perhaps because you're rather hostile in your replies, e.g., >>284131:
>how the fuck do you think...

Anonymous (ID: 772551)Country code: windows9x.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  284180

>>284172
>>284173
Tone is different from the content of your speech. I think you'll find that you've initiated personal attacks every time for quite a while, I just fire back.

This issue already has a plan(s). I thought you were concerned with which one to go with.

Mk17(p-hone)!!Trixie (ID: b55e3b)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  284183

File: 1558192285241.png (581.65 KB, 1047x921, 1532462857522.png)

>>284180
Listen, I've tried to bury that hatchet with you a ton of times. I've tried to be friends with you, I've tried to figure out how to talk with you.
It's been over a year and I've had 0 positive interactions with you.

I said I was going to just ignore you so it's my fault really. But frankly I'm getting tired of you running around being a huge insulting jerk to people then huddling in the corner when they do it back.
I'm also sick of you being a topic that people bring up to me off site.
If causing a problem is your goal, you've achieved it in spades.
So idk man, like I've said before, talking to you is like touching a hot stove.

Anonymous (ID: 772551)Country code: windows9x.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  284194

>>284183
I bury the hatchet after every conversation. I don't want to be friends, or already am. I don't know how you define that.

>But frankly I'm getting tired of you running around being a huge insulting jerk to people then huddling in the corner when they do it back.

Give me an example.

>I'm also sick of you being a topic that people bring up to me off site.

Tell 'em to confront me, or tell 'em to fuck off.

>If causing a problem is your goal, you've achieved it in spades.

Initially maybe, not anymore.

Mk17(p-hone)!!Trixie (ID: b55e3b)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  284231

File: 1558205437780.png (1.04 MB, 1293x1173, 1532390163574.png)

>>284194
>I bury the hatchet after every conversation.
Maybe in your own head.
>>Give me an example.
Well,
>>284169
>Off-topic: Why do you always attack my character when replying to me? Seems kind of weird for someone who doesn't like that.
For one.
But yeah, you don't usually back off tbh, normally you just get more insulting untill whoever your talking to just gives up.
>Tell 'em to confront me
I can't tell them what to do.
>or tell 'em to fuck off.
That's not how I operate.
<If causing a problem is your goal, you've achieved it in spades.
>Initially maybe, not anymore.
Well I guess you did such a good job initially that it's kinda hard to tell if anything has changed.
That's why when you say stuff like you need to give me a sarcasm warning so my "smooth brain" can handle it, all I can do is laugh. Maybe you shouldn't be a huge dick so that people can tell when your being sarcastic.

Idk why you're here tbh, and I'm out of reasons to take your word on anything. You've said your just here to give people a hard time enough and you haven't proven otherwise, so that's what I'm running on.

And it's whatever, you do you, don't break the rules and we'll never have a problem as far as I'm concerned.
But I have no reason to take you seriously on anything.

Anonymous (ID: 772551)Country code: windows9x.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  284242

>>284231
>For one.
Now point out the spot where I was a huge insulting jerk before making that comment.

>I can't tell them what to do.

You can suggest so.

>That's not how I operate.

Well it seems like a self-imposed problem then.

>Well I guess you did such a good job initially that it's kinda hard to tell if anything has changed.

Could it be that your own biases don't let you see me as anything but the same each time?

>That's why when you say stuff like you need to give me a sarcasm warning so my "smooth brain" can handle it, all I can do is laugh. Maybe you shouldn't be a huge dick so that people can tell when your being sarcastic.

You provoked those insults by attacking my person.

Mk17(p-hone)!!Trixie (ID: b55e3b)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  284248

File: 1558209401879.png (992.8 KB, 1302x1234, 1533007913816.png)

>>284242


Like I said, it's been over a year and I haven't had 1 decent conversation with you, I can't say that about anyone else on this site.

I've asked you several times to stop talking to me, you continue to talk to me, so I'm just going to view that as you intentionally being a jerk.

If you don't like it, leave me alone.

This isn't something that can be debated.

Mikie(phone)!GlimDubEqI (ID: 0c53f4)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  284251

>>284242
You attack people all the time though. You act like a smug and pretentious jerk.

No shit people are gonna be abrasive towards you. Think about it.

Anonymous (ID: 772551)Country code: windows9x.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  284256

>>284248
>I've asked you several times to stop talking to me
I only remember you saying that you were going to stop talking to me, and you can view my replies as commenting on your posts instead of trying to talk to you.

>>284251
>You attack people all the time though.
Well this is a you say I say situation.

Starshine!Laura/wmXM (ID: 6c4bcd)Country code: ponychan.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  284258

File: 1558210550554.png (74.86 KB, 1147x364, Screenshot_2019-05-16_16-17-30…)

>>284248
>>284251
I think what he's getting at is that he's tried to be less of a jerk lately but people still respond as if he's being a jerk even when he's not.

And to be honest, that is the impression I've been getting lately. idk, it's like you guys have a hair trigger for him, no matter what he posts you assume he's saying it in the most aggressive or condescending way possible, and respond aggressively or condescendingly in turn.

Assuming the worst tends to bring about the assumed result even if it otherwise wouldn't have.

(ID: b552f1)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  284263

File: 1558211191908.png (347.73 KB, 513x758, 98098879789.png)

>>284256
so be it

it's just what i observed and its clear im not the only one who sees it

>>284258
oh yeah, my bad

sorry for not accepting this users change of heart on a whim because he doesnt post foxes anymore

Mk17(p-hone)!!Trixie (ID: b55e3b)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  284264

File: 1558211261872.png (354.31 KB, 1080x2160, Screenshot_20190518-121940.png)

>>284258
>no matter what he posts you assume he's saying it in the most aggressive or condescending way possible

<If causing a problem is your goal, you've achieved it in spades.

>Initially maybe, not anymore.

You can only burn a bridge so much starshine. Your coming into the situation late in the game but this has been going on since the first week I was here.

Enough is enough.

Mk17(p-hone)!!Trixie (ID: b55e3b)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  284270

File: 1558211913003.png (1.05 MB, 1920x1440, 1532987594478.png)

>>284258
And also you know that I defend this guy, and don't do anything to deliberately be a jerk to him, and say I have nothing against him.

You know he just gives mikie and I a hard time.

You know he has admitted it.

Honestly my biggest problem with him is that it makes friction between you and I.
I could care less about the guy who has been non stop being an ass to me for over a year.
Just because he says he "changed" when he gets called out means very little to me considering the history.

Starshine!Laura/wmXM (ID: 6c4bcd)Country code: ponychan.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  284274

File: 1558212266335.jpg (63.1 KB, 1024x576, IMG_20190514_110100.jpg)

>>284263
>>284264
Maybe you guys should just ignore him then, if you don't think it's possible to have a good conversation regardless of what he says.

I'm not late in the game, this has been going on since before the first week you were here. I know Foxanon was a snarky asshole, and he still can be. But there's a pronounced difference between the way he posted then and the way he posts now, and you guys can't see it because in your head you still have that image of him as someone whose MO is pissing people off.

>>284270
Well, I'll keep watching, and if I see another scuffle break out, I'll point out who started it and present evidence. How's that?

Anonymous (ID: 772551)Country code: windows9x.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  284277

>>284270
>You know he just gives mikie and I a hard time.
Wait, do you think me confronting what you post is an attack towards you as a person?

(ID: b552f1)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  284279

File: 1558212620029.png (375.81 KB, 787x693, 8987987566.png)

>>284274
i mean that's what i have been doing as of late

Mk17(p-hone)!!Trixie (ID: b55e3b)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  284281

File: 1558212630361.png (1.52 MB, 2028x1345, 1533007176138.png)

>>284274
Idk. I think I deal with my personal situations fine.

But if you need me to just completely ignore him thats fine too, though historically I find that causes more trouble. But, I have to imagin he is laughing his ass off right now, and sees your intervention as an immunity to be able to harass us as much as he wants.

You're basically telling the victims that they are wrong for standing up for themselves. I don't normally have any issues dealing with inter personal situations but your now involved so I'll fallow your advice I suppose.
This post was edited by its author on .

Starshine!Laura/wmXM (ID: 6c4bcd)Country code: ponychan.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  284288

File: 1558213600444.jpg (330.54 KB, 2000x2829, IMG_20190512_091022.jpg)

>>284281
>I have to imagin he is laughing his ass off right now, and sees your intervention as an immunity to be able to harass us as much as he wants
Well, that just further solidifies my point tbh. Not everything he says is harassment. You're so solidified in this image you have of him that you don't even realize that. What was wrong with his post in my screenshot that warranted accusations of trolling?

>You are basically telling the victims they are wrong for standing up for themselves

On the contrary, if he's actually snarking at you, go ahead and snark back, or just cut the conversation short. But my observation has been that lately, he's not the one who starts it.

(ID: b552f1)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  284292

File: 1558214116491.png (463.52 KB, 634x722, 98978998978.png)

>>284288
>You're so solidified in this image you have of him that you don't even realize that. What was wrong with his post in my screenshot that warranted accusations of trolling?
steam twist gets the same treatment

its almost like when you mold an image of yourself it sort of stays that way

look, i am far more than that willing to accept this guy has changed

but to me, it still all the same

nothings changed

Starshine!Laura/wmXM (ID: 41272d)Country code: lunachan.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  284297

File: 1558214253509.jpg (5.28 MB, 2480x3508, yande.re 504568 holmemee kimon…)

>>284292
Yeah, and I also think that people can be needlessly hostile to Steam Twist. Sometimes he's the one who starts it, sure, but plenty of times people just go into his threads intentionally looking for trouble.

Mk17(p-hone)!!Trixie (ID: b55e3b)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  284303

File: 1558214666376.png (40.92 KB, 945x945, shrugpony_trixie_by_moongazepo…)

>>284288
>You're so solidified in this image you have of him that you don't even realize that. What was wrong with his post in my screenshot that warranted accusations of trolling?
If every time you see someone for a year they punch you in the face, your reaction is going to be to block.
I've straight told him that I don't want him to talk to me, and that if he does I'm going to assume he is just giving me a hard time, so he knows the deal.

So what warrented the accusation of trolling? The year that he has been doing it.

Mk17(p-hone)!!Trixie (ID: b55e3b)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  284307

File: 1558214975916.png (713.06 KB, 1088x1068, Screenshot_2018-08-05-23-17-58…)

>>284297
And on top of that I have made sincere attempts, many, to be nice to him and I always get burned.
That's why I say, talking to him is like touching a stove.

You know I do everything I can to be civil with people, you know even with this guy I always try to give the benefit of the doubt, but sometimes you just have to call a spade a spade.

Ika (ID: 1a97fc)Country code: mx, country type: geoip, valid: 1  284309

File: 1558215175771.png (893.16 KB, 864x820, 8caa23815e4b4101c87c4dbc98e4ca…)

>>284274
>and you guys can't see it because in your head you still have that image of him as someone whose MO is pissing people off.
100% this.

Mk17(p-hone)!!Trixie (ID: b55e3b)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  284311

File: 1558215560415.png (1011.62 KB, 1298x1305, mtr_1533013400086.png)

>>284309
There is so much to unpack here.

(ID: b552f1)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  284318

File: 1558215769569.png (326.13 KB, 506x591, 6565487900.png)

>>284297
that's because steam twist kinda starts the trouble

sort of the same deal with foxanon

he spergs out on people and wonders why nobody wants to talk to him. i.e: >>280650

Starshine!Laura/wmXM (ID: 41272d)Country code: lunachan.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  284323

File: 1558216009591.jpg (77.89 KB, 768x768, D1nz7TsVYAAy1_w.jpg:large.jpeg)

>>284307
>That's why I say, talking to him is like touching a stove.
Then stop talking to him. You're not obligated to reply to him.

>you know even with this guy I always try to give the benefit of the doubt

You didn't give him the benefit of the doubt in this thread.

But meh, I'm out. I just wanna chill today.

Mk17(p-hone)!!Trixie (ID: b55e3b)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  284325

File: 1558216068666.png (1.01 MB, 1619x1245, 1532523834689.png)

>>284297


>>284318
>he spergs out on people and wonders why nobody wants to talk to him. i.e: >>280650
Yeah, right?
Show me what I said to deserve that haha.
And tell me I'm wrong for assuming he is just in it to be a dick.

Honestly, assuming he is just a troll is giving him the benefit of the doubt, because I don't want to think someone is that big of an asshole and would rather think he is just messing with me.

Mk17(p-hone)!!Trixie (ID: b55e3b)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  284345

File: 1558217726822.png (517.16 KB, 965x940, Screenshot_2018-09-01-01-15-09…)

>>284323
Fair enough. Chilling is good.


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