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File: 1547078467294.jpg (65.3 KB, 931x524, 694940094001_5984445466001_598…)

Anonymous (ID: e45972)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid:   218689[Last 50 Posts]

Why are Pelosi and Schumer so against $5B for the wall that they are willing to keep the govt shut down over it? Are they just being spiteful to Trump and trying to deny him his campaign promise? If they actually care about wasting taxpayer money, isn't there a lot more bigger targets that they should be going after?

(ID: bf0d4f)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  218690

File: 1547078769682.png (207.89 KB, 341x468, 65767658768.png)

im pretty sure its the former

but i wanna believe its the latter that they care about tax payer money

but i havent seen a democrat or a republican give a shit about wasting tax dollars in my life

well, besides those like ron and rand paul

at least not at the federal level

(ID: a6cb43)Country code: amsterdam.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  218692

File: 1547079294961.jpg (117.65 KB, 639x889, Sexy_Minions_by_jollyjack.jpg)

>>218689
Do you have any concept of how much 5 billion dollars is?

One billion is 1000 millions.

Which means 5 billion is 5000 million.

Meaning if you spent 1 MILLION dollars a day, every day, it would take you 13.5 years to spend it all.

🐈🐈Dodger🐈🐈!FGiFL0Ecls (ID: bf9948)Country code: windows9x.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  218694

File: 1547079493647.png (595.94 KB, 1366x768, 1543287542245.png)

cause their not Drumpftards

☲ Prince Ember Storm!MSNowBALLk (ID: ad715b)Country code: canadian-red-ensign.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  218696

File: 1547079866151.png (187.12 KB, 1713x1970, Ember Storm - Errrr.png)

Iiiii'm pretty sure that Trump was the guy who shut the government down and is the one keeping the government shut down because he's too busy throwing a tantrum to do anything else.

(ID: a6cb43)Country code: amsterdam.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  218697

File: 1547080068379.jpg (117.65 KB, 639x889, Sexy_Minions_by_jollyjack.jpg)

>>218696
He's shutting the government down to prevent himself from being prosecuted. It has nothing to do with the wall. The wall is a smokescreen.

He's using it as a stalling tactic so he can grease the palms of the right people so he can slip out of the hole he dug himself into. He can't pardon himself, as much as he likes to think he can, so if he shuts down the government they can't push any prosecution against him. He's gaming the system.
This post was edited by its author on .

Starshine!Laura/wmXM (ID: 107513)Country code: lunachan.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  218701

File: 1547080751026.jpg (91.23 KB, 823x1068, c268747bf954f97962827ad1d98474…)

> isn't there a lot more bigger targets that they should be going after?
They should be going after those as well as the wall. If your house is on fire and you also have cancer, taking care of one doesn't have to come at the expense of the other.

Which wastes of money do you think should be the highest priority to tackle anyway?

🐈🐈Dodger🐈🐈!FGiFL0Ecls (ID: bf9948)Country code: windows9x.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  218702

File: 1547080804774.png (318.56 KB, 957x538, 1541958488413.png)

God I can't wait to be a senile millennial and assault Drumpftards in the nursing home, and all the young people who were born after he left office will just think I'm a kooky old man.

Noonim (ID: 745e7a)Country code: mlpchan.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  218703

File: 1547080850647.png (136.58 KB, 1852x1408, 1545176803387.png)

>>218697
There's no way in hell they'll charge Trump with anything. They know if they're not incredibly careful, civil unrest is guaranteed...

... Granted I might be a bit optimistic about how aware they are of how people see all this. So, maybe I'm wrong and we'll see civil war 2.0

Starshine!Laura/wmXM (ID: 107513)Country code: lunachan.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  218706

File: 1547081143558.jpg (75.64 KB, 600x800, __patchouli_knowledge_touhou_d…)

>>218703
Question...

If they have damning enough evidence to impeach, and they do, would civil unrest over it be justified? Assuming they can prove, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that the law was violated.

(ID: bf0d4f)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  218708

File: 1547081215183.png (600.13 KB, 780x768, 0976575675.png)

>>218703
then the people will just end up with pence

i know there are some who really dont want that

Anonymous (ID: e45972)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  218709

>>218697
The chance of 2/3 of the Senate convicting Trump is slim to none. And it is far from certain that Trump can't pardon himself.

>>218701
>Which wastes of money do you think should be the highest priority to tackle anyway?
Wasteful military spending like the F-35. TBH the whole Pentagon bureaucracy needs massive reform. Have you heard about the Bradley Fighting Vehicle? A movie was even about it.
This post was edited by its author on .

Starshine!Laura/wmXM (ID: 107513)Country code: lunachan.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  218710

File: 1547081356720.jpg (47.85 KB, 386x454, gj.jpg)

>>218709
Based.

Anonymous (ID: e45972)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  218712

>>218703
>There's no way in hell they'll charge Trump with anything.
The House might impeach him just for political theater even if they know that the Senate will acquit him.

Noonim (ID: 745e7a)Country code: mlpchan.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  218713

File: 1547081408950.jpg (606.22 KB, 3024x3024, 1543269545051.jpg)

>>218706
Given the rampant corruption that we know about that they actively ignore?
I personally say no. Especially given what He seems to be accused of doing. It doesn't seem like a significant crime, by my standard, anyway.
and of course there is no escaping the fact that it is very politically charged, the reason they are going after him.

>>218708
I don't even think most of Trump's base want pence.

Noonim (ID: 745e7a)Country code: mlpchan.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  218714

>>218712
Like I said, if they do that, that guarantees massive civil unrest. The best outcome would be for him to resign, but, even that risks some pretty serious backlash.

And God help them when it comes to whoever we end up electing next. if people feel that Trump didn't work out, as Hardline as he might have been, they are definitely going to go towards somebody more extreme.

(ID: bf0d4f)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  218715

File: 1547081690803.png (494.36 KB, 670x699, 88987987987.png)

>>218713
then they shouldnt want to IMPEECH BLUMPF

Anonymous (ID: e45972)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  218716

>>218714
>Like I said, if they do that, that guarantees massive civil unrest.
Why is that? I don't think people will riot just because the Dems are pulling a political stunt. Impeachment does nothing unless the Senate convicts by 2/3 majority, and that isn't going to happen given the current political situation.

Starshine!Laura/wmXM (ID: 107513)Country code: lunachan.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  218717

File: 1547081812623.jpg (209.54 KB, 494x700, 49067895_p0.jpg)

>>218713
Personally, I'm of the opinion that it's a waste of time better spent enacting policies, not to mention bad optics. But doesn't kind of speak to how far we've let our political system slide, when we say things like "yeah, my guy is corrupt, but theirs is too, so he shouldn't be punished for it" or "yeah, the people in power are corrupt, but there's more important things we should be focusing on than fixing that"?

I don't think anyone, democrat or republican, should get away with interfering in elections or other dishonest behavior. We need to put integrity back into politics somehow.

Noonim (ID: 745e7a)Country code: mlpchan.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  218718

>>218716
I assume by impeachments you mean the president's kicked out of his seat, right? I mean, I guess if he's not, yeah, I guess it wouldn't do anything.

but, to the common people who voted for Trump, I think it would be seen, if he was pulled from office, as a complete abandonment of basic democracy. They would see it as though a vote no longer actually does anything. They would lose hope for the system itself.
Personally, I'm about three-quarters of the way there, as is.

>>218717
I'd agree if it wasn't for the fact that it is being used as a weapon by the corrupt. I would personally much rather everybody get arrested whenever they do any corrupt shit. But, as is, crimes that frankly shouldn't be crimes are pushed on people who are trying to fight against corruption. People are giving massive fines, jail time even, or incredibly minor offenses, very often by these corrupt people. As much as I would absolutely love to say we should arrest anybody who breaks the law, when the law is a weapon used by the corrupt, there is no point to it.

As for how you can put the integrity back into politics, among other things, get the money out of politics. wages for politicians should be purely a living wage. they should not be allowed to take personal funds out of donations, or side jobs. Frankly, I don't know if I think they should be allowed to work outside of politics, at all.
But, then, I kind of like the idea of service, rather than hey career. Politics, policing, military, all of that should be something one volunteers for at cost to themselves.
It should not be comfortable. It should just be sustainable.

Anonymous (ID: e45972)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  218719

>>218718
>I assume by impeachments you mean the president's kicked out of his seat, right?
Nope, that's a common misunderstanding. "Impeachment" just means that he is formally *accused* of high crimes or misdemeanors. It's like an indictment.

Anonymous (ID: e45972)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  218720

>>218718
>wages for politicians should be purely a living wage
I have a different take: I suggest that congressmen should be highly compensated but contingent on obeying very strict bribery and conflict-of-interest rules.

Paying little money ensures that mainly independently wealthy people will run for office. I don't think that's necessarily a good thing.
This post was edited by its author on .

J (ID: 2c0d21)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  218732

File: 1547089098126.jpg (113.97 KB, 1095x730, lewa___toa_of_air_by_superherm…)

>>218720
They probably were and one day just got in a circle and voted each other out of these restrictions early in this country's history.

The founders weren't too stupid to see this coming from a parsec away and at least try to do the bare minimum to prevent it, it's just the problem of power that's an irrepressible flaw of this universe, jfc.
This post was edited by its author on .

(ID: bf0d4f)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  218733

File: 1547089313733.png (322.69 KB, 752x768, 978897979.png)

>>218732
i think the founders also didnt realize that congress was going to be this stupid

they underestimated the stupidity of congress

J-I-G-G-A!SATSUkIQg2 (ID: 2c0d21)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  218734

File: 1547089845313.jpg (48.07 KB, 828x811, irg189ep7p021.jpg)

>>218733
Corrupting to one's own personal gain, or mutual gain between you and fellow corrupt individuals to the detriment of the many, through malignant intelligence, can hardly be called "stupidity," especially when it totally benefits you and yours for the rest of your lifetime while it's future generations of average citizens who'll get cucked the hardest.

(ID: bf0d4f)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  218735

File: 1547090486512.png (399.32 KB, 611x718, 8798709098.png)

>>218734
sure, but whats so hard about reading article 1 section 8 and thinking "gee we cant do that"

(ID: a4f1e5)Country code: amsterdam.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  218736

File: 1547090894647.gif (998.83 KB, 500x281, e2b131d0bd7d9e4d5fbed7e71d7cda…)

>>218709
>And it is far from certain that Trump can't pardon himself.

Lawsplainer: Can the President Pardon Himself?

Though not specifically stated, it's pretty much established that if Trump ever tried to pardon himself, it would fail miserably.

Anonymous (ID: e45972)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  218738

>>218736
>it's pretty much established that if Trump ever tried to pardon himself, it would fail miserably.
Except it's not. It's an unresolved questiin whether thbprsdident can pardon himself. (But even if he did pardon himself, he could still be impeached and removed, since his pardon power extends only to criminal justice, not to the impeachment process.)

Vio Lette!qXZZ8NDkR. (ID: e198a2)Country code: au, country type: geoip, valid: 1  218748

File: 1547102034279.png (87.13 KB, 347x400, a0410c5472371291fe4e4d70286105…)

>>218689
>If they actually care about wasting taxpayer money, isn't there a lot more bigger targets that they should be going after?
Um, 5 billion dollars for something many analysts say won't even be effective? That sound like a pretty fucking big target to me!
If Trump's wall ever does get built, some future president will just knock it down, which only makes it an even worse investment.

Thauma (ID: f156c3)Country code: windows9x.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  218750

File: 1547106287989.jpg (155.12 KB, 494x688, 126.jpg)

>>218692
Do you have any concept of how much 4 trillion dollars is?
Because that's about how much money the US government spent in 2018.
Suddenly 5 billion doesn't seem as drastic.
This post was edited by its author on .

(ID: fce2c1)Country code: mlpchan.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  218753

>>218750

Well, maybe they shouldn't have 4 trillion dollars to spend, if they are going to spend it on such frivolous and hateful things.

Thauma (ID: f156c3)Country code: windows9x.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  218754

File: 1547107594120.jpg (307.55 KB, 787x700, 077.jpg)

>>218753
I wouldn't know. All I know is comparing billions to a regular person spending it is much different than comparing it to the total expenditure of the government that already happens.

Mythix!wG1CV58ydQ (ID: 1d847b)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  218776

File: 1547110533241.jpg (94.38 KB, 605x340, man_with_cash_000073068135.jpg)

If I had a billion dollars the world would be a better place.

Mikie(phone)!GlimDubEqI (ID: 01da09)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  218785

>>218750
Much more than that is spent on other useless shit

But since it's a wall all the sudden people start caring about the budget

Amazing

Noonim (ID: 2680a0)Country code: mlpchan.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  218800

>>218719
Oh. Fair enough, then. The Dems can do what they want that way, I'd say. People either believe Trump is evil or stand by him, and I couldn't see that split changing either way, I guess.

>>218720
I think the current issue, though, is people going into politics for personal gain. I don't think this would help much.

(ID: a6cb43)Country code: amsterdam.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  218839

File: 1547150549751.jpg (157.66 KB, 1086x735, Vroom_by_jollyjack.jpg)

>>218738
I still believe this is a smoke screen. It doesn't make sense otherwise. Think about it, after actually winning the election, Trump basically forgets about the wall. Yes, he mentions it from time to time just because it's kind of his trademark thing at this point, but he hasn't actually bothered to push anything about it.

Then all of a sudden, he starts facing legal trouble and now the wall is THE. MOST. IMPORTANT. THING. so important in fact that the government has to be shut down over it?

I'm not buying it. This is a red herring thing they do CONSTANTLY to deflect media and public attention off of something more important. The fact that this basically came out of nowhere is very suspicious to me.

Trump doesn't actually care about the wall. This is a diversion.

(ID: ed401b)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  218840

File: 1547150820323.png (601.11 KB, 868x768, 34324346567.png)

>>218839
trump has been facing legal trouble since he became president

remember the "muh russki hax" shit?

this is a classic case of him being outright stubborn

(ID: a6cb43)Country code: amsterdam.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  218841

File: 1547150877651.jpg (128.34 KB, 748x836, Denizen_Tickle_by_jollyjack.jp…)

>>218840
Not like this though. The government does this sort of thing all the time. Something big must have come up for them to go this far with it though.

(ID: ed401b)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  218842

File: 1547150988910.png (361.98 KB, 499x728, 54436687867.png)

>>218841
i mean, you could be right

it just seems unlikely

this isnt the first time we have had government shutdowns

then again who knows

...its trump

Anonymous (ID: 953587)Country code: mlpchan.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  218874

>>218689
I agree. Why build a wall if you can test weapons on them?

(ID: a6cb43)Country code: amsterdam.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  218877

File: 1547161273996.jpg (105.74 KB, 649x753, Christmas_Cookies_by_jollyjack…)

>>218842
The thing is that this kind of tactic works. Because everyone is up in arms about it.

The easiest way to get away with something you don't want people to see is to cause a completely unrelated horrific car crash to draw all of their attention.

Hell, I was playing Hitman 2 and I use this tactic liberally. In one scenario I had to escape on a helicopter being guarded by like 4 guys with machine guns and I wasn't able to kill any of them as part of the mission, so I literally just set off a fireworks display prematurely and walked behind them and into the chopper as they watched the fireworks.

It was ridiculous how easy it was but that's because people are naturally drawn to whatever is making the most noise, and if you want to take public attention off of something, the easiest way to do that is to just cause a completely unrelated fiasco to occupy their attention.

Again, the reason this is suspicious to me is time frame. Trump has been in office for quite a while, all that time not getting his wall. Now that people are talking about impeachment, all of a sudden the wall is so important the government is shutting down over it? Riiiiiight.
This post was edited by its author on .

(ID: ed401b)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  218883

File: 1547163513972.png (386.89 KB, 536x768, 677867855.png)

>>218877
the reason why this theory doesnt hold water to me is mostly because in order for the impeachment process to occur it has get through the senate. the senate has to convict him.

the senate has a republican majority

good luck getting two-thirds majority reached

theres like 1% chance of of trump getting removed

why would he worry of it? he would just be impeached but not removed
This post was edited by its author on .

(ID: a6cb43)Country code: amsterdam.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  218884

File: 1547163894234.jpg (117.65 KB, 639x889, Sexy_Minions_by_jollyjack.jpg)

>>218883
I don't think impeachment is his primary concern.

I think if Trump was impeached he'd just be like "Oh well, whatever." and go back to doing what he was doing before he became president.

I think what he's more concerned about is his holdings. During an impeachment there is going to be a lot of investigation looking for dirt. Obviously, Trump has a lot of dirt he doesn't want dug up, particularly stuff not related to his presidency. I think he's in a panic mode of trying to "tidy house" before letting the investigators in, and he's using this as a stalling tactic to buy time to liquidate anything that could put his businesses at risk after leaving office, either due to normal circumstance or impeachment.

I have a strong feeling, like I said, that Trump is not worried about impeachment, he's more worried about not having anything to go back to after leaving office due to these investigations.

(ID: ed401b)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  218885

File: 1547164226086.png (220.34 KB, 399x467, 76576587769879.png)

>>218884
impeachment doesnt mean removed

it just means he isnt convicted of whatever he was accused of

so he would still be president

>he's more worried about not having anything to go back to after leaving office due to these investigations

i feel like trump of all people is the last person to care about this

a lost pony !piNKiEPie. (ID: 75ab6b)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  218907

>>218885
"impeached" actually only means to charge him. he still gets due process.

a lost pony !piNKiEPie. (ID: 75ab6b)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  218908

>>218689
He's the one imposing the condition.

the better question is why is he willing to screw his own constituents to this degree to get his shitty chickenwire bullshit fuckery.

Seems to me the same people bitching the dems wont give him what he wants are the same sort of people who bitch that millennials are entitled because their spoiling parents gave them all the candy they wanted.

y'all hafta pick a position with some consistency or people with critical thinking skills will continue to laugh at you stupid whining tantrums.

(ID: ed401b)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  218909

File: 1547172116587.png (402.29 KB, 559x768, 54365465476867.png)

>>218907
right, but he still doesnt get removed IF he doesnt get convicted

just like how bill clinton wasnt removed either

he was simply only impeached

i wouldnt count on the republican majority of the senate to get him removed any time soon

a lost pony !piNKiEPie. (ID: 75ab6b)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  218912

File: 1547172489766.png (84.18 KB, 525x467, pinkysmile2.png)

>>218909
it's just a silly and divisive tactic from our friendly nayborhood dems feeling their oats now that they aren't a double-minority.

I already forgot what it was but their first day they were pushing some stupid lame thing no one wants and would never work anyway instead of focusing on dealing with putting together an interim budget that's slim and trim enough to get the 66% override support.

Shocking that they're actually hanging on Trump's word and one is pushing impeachment ads while Trump's pushing wall ads and not one legitimate actual politician has mentioned that we even have an override. I wonder how many americans even are aware that it exists.

oh yeah my own food stamps are now cut off cuz of the impasse, so it's good I'm also proletariat and not dependent on gov aid just to eat. Families with kids are starving right now, and Trumps own supporters are now having difficulty eating or paying mortgages or rent. Great job orange man.

Great job Dems too. Maybe it's time for a good public tarring and feathering and a little burning in DC, bring your favorite guillotine.

I'm actually kinda cheerful, ha. Nice to see ya btw, hope things are well here.

(ID: ed401b)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  218914

File: 1547172843864.png (129.88 KB, 252x396, 9898709098.png)

>>218912
literally all this could end if they just give the baby his bottle

they've supported a border fence once before during the bush administration

just move on and be done with it

things are going decent and nice to see you too

Anonymous (ID: e45972)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  218921

>>218839
>The fact that this basically came out of nowhere is very suspicious to me.
It came out of Ann Coulter and the guys he watches on Fox News complain that he isnt building the wall.

a lost pony !piNKiEPie. (ID: 4a5ed6)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  219025

File: 1547192817763.jpg (448.53 KB, 776x600, 1546797061174.jpg)

>>218839
Well the other week.they were turning up some substantive shit and now, not a word about it, just wall-eyed wall wallies.

Pez (ID: aee8db)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  219688

The president does have the right to veto, however his job is NOT to make specific budget demands and say the government won't open until until the other branches bend to his will. Giving baby his bottle is allowing a power hungry faggot more power than he's supposed to have. America does not have a king, and congress is not a group of his employees. If anything I'm more pissed at Mitch for refusing to hold a vote, protecting the president from criticism if the republicans cooperate to pass legislation they agree on. Refusing to put pressure on the president even if he said he wouldn't sign it would cripple the argument that it's just the democrats being stubborn. All of congress supported the shit he shot down, and the budget is their job. Vetos aren't a way to make a specific demand, they're a way to stop legislation that is viewed as harmful.

(ID: dab56d)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  219693

File: 1547345570380.png (343.85 KB, 567x723, 90098098798.png)

>>219688
>The president does have the right to veto, however his job is NOT to make specific budget demands and say the government won't open until until the other branches bend to his will. Giving baby his bottle is allowing a power hungry faggot more power than he's supposed to have.
this is actually a very good point

we've already been having problems with presidents gaining more and more executive power

but then again, this is what happens when government steps over constitutional boundaries

its sets the precedent making it seem okay to continue this path

this is actually something i should have thought of

so thank you for the reminder, because its a reminder that everyone should know

Pez (ID: aee8db)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  219695

>>219693
Another key point is that he keeps blaming the democrats when republicans tried to pass the same bills. The only reason the republican senate isn't shown opposing him is because Mitch McConnel is refusing to allow the senate to vote on anything without the express consent of the president. His main support comes from the idea that it's only his opposition trying to sabotage things. Mitch is protecting him from reality, until now he had full support from republican controlled house and senate, and now that he lost the house one man in the senate is refusing to let senators do their jobs. That decrepit turtle needs to die already, he's the biggest coward in congress.
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Anonymous (ID: aa62b4)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  219718

File: 1547347817541.png (357.21 KB, 640x360, 1546992213820.png)

>>219695
The broader problem is that the Senate has so many rules that prevent the Senate from voting for a measure even when a majority want to vote. Without the filibuster, the Dems wouldn't have been able to shut down the government by blocking the budget vote in the Senate last year.

Urda (ID: 03c6c5)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  219803

File: 1547357517973.jpg (146.56 KB, 600x427, D0F124F7-387E-4D4B-8F8B-61230B…)

Because they hate America

EquestriaGuy!1DerpyVA.6 (ID: fb277c)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  219805

>>218689
A wall is useless and would be a literal monumental blight on our country and morality.

Walls are deterrents. They keep out people who either have no interest in getting beyond them, or only mild compulsion. If someone desires to get past a wall, namely a refugee from Central America or Mexico, they'll 100% be able to go under, over, around, or through it. This is especially easy now that he's talking about steel slats.

The best answer is to invest in technologies and man power. Democrats are all for border security, but a wall is NOT border security. It's an asinine waste of tax payer dollars and could never fulfill its purpose enough to justify the monetary or moral price tag.

Anonymous (ID: aa62b4)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  219806

>>219805
Have you ever tried to shoot a moving coyote from a helicopter? It's fucking hard. The wall will slow them down enough so that our aerial and/or ground forces can take them out.

EquestriaGuy!1DerpyVA.6 (ID: fb277c)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  219807

>>218689
>>219805
Secondly, No one in the Republican party even wants the wall. It's only Trump. The Senate passed a funding bill 100-0 on the promise from Trump that he'd sign it, but then Trump turned on Fox News and his fee fees were so hurt by Rush Limbaugh and Ann Coulter that he wimped out and caved to the lunatic fringe of the right.

Thirdly, he's holding 800k Federal workers, plus contractors, plus all those who rely on Federal programs to live, as hostages for wall funding. We do NOT negotiate with terrorists, and we sure as shit don't negotiate with toddler hissy fits over a campaign promise that never had any chance of actually being fulfilled. Pelosi has passed several bills to reopen every single branch of government, but McConnell refuses to bring it to the Senate floor because he's subservient to Trump and his base. McConnell has completely abdicated his role as the Majority Leader of a co-equal branch of government.

If Trump's wall is such a damn good idea, he should be able to pass it on its own merits, and shouldn't need to hold a gun to the heads of millions of Americans.

Fourthly, he claims this is a national emergency. Yet this is a problem spanning decades, has never been a national emergency before now, and border crossings are at all-time low. There's actually more going out than in. Seems to me like the current system works pretty damn well, so why then build a wall? Also, he had full control of all 3 steps of the legislative process for 2 full years, yet never tried to build the wall. Amazing how the day Democrats assume power over The House, suddenly he manufactures this national emergency and he just now needs funding. Seems pretty clear as day he sat on this so that when Pelosi was in power he could energize and focus his rabid base against her.

Wasn't a national emergency from January 2017-Dec 2018. What changed?

What is he also trying to distract us from? Is it the counter intelligence investigation? Is it the impending Mueller report? Is it the endless list of House Judiciary, Intelligence, and Ethics Committee investigations we're going to see over the next 2 years?

EquestriaGuy!1DerpyVA.6 (ID: fb277c)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  219808

>>219806
This is the US border, not an above ground nuclear weapon storage area. There is nobody being "taken out".

Anonymous (ID: aa62b4)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  219809

>>219808
>There is nobody being "taken out".
Well that's part of the problem. We need to get serious about border security.

EquestriaGuy!1DerpyVA.6 (ID: fb277c)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  219810

>>219809
RIP due process. I guess taking border security seriously means applying deadly force to an obscure misdemeanor.

You do realize that, right? Crossing the border illegally is a paltry misdemeanor. This isn't Russia, Iran, Venezuela, Turkey, The Philippines, or North Korea, so no, we're not fuckin sniping people from helicopters for what amounts to a fine or brief incarceration.

Anonymous (ID: aa62b4)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  219811

>>219810
People illegally trying to break through a massive wall (or steel-slat fence, or even a simple barbed-wired chain-link fence) are just asking to get themselves shot.

EquestriaGuy!1DerpyVA.6 (ID: fb277c)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  219812

>>219811
yeah no

Anonymous (ID: aa62b4)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  219813

>>219812
A wall works for Israel.

Anonymous (ID: aa62b4)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  219814

>>219812
In Texas, if someone breaks through your wall and invades your property, you can shoot them to defend yourself.

EquestriaGuy!1DerpyVA.6 (ID: fb277c)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  219818

>>219813
I hear that talking point used a lot, but it always makes me laugh. It;s really just a bizarre, awkward thing to say.

1) No one from Palestine is trying to get into Israeli territory
2) Their border isn't 2,000 miles long
3) The US is a shining beacon for the world, built upon centuries of immigration. That should never change.

Anonymous (ID: aa62b4)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  219819

>>219818
>1) No one from Palestine is trying to get into Israeli territory
Then why did they build the wall? Really makes you think, huh?

EquestriaGuy!1DerpyVA.6 (ID: fb277c)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  219820

>>219814
another comment section talking point?

What was that key word you used there? It begins with a D.

Beyond that, your talking point refers specifically to private land, rather than public, and there are extreme limitations. If someone is standing in my back yard, I can't just walk outside and execute him.

EquestriaGuy!1DerpyVA.6 (ID: fb277c)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  219821

>>219819
Here's another D word for you. Different than the D word in my last post. I believe I used it in >>219805

Anonymous (ID: aa62b4)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  219823

File: 1547360560324.png (207.64 KB, 820x640, 142759252157.png)

>>219821
Well if a wall deters illegal border crossings in Israel, it should do the same on our southern border. The only tricky part is how to get Mexico to pay for it.

EquestriaGuy!1DerpyVA.6 (ID: fb277c)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  219826

>>219823
Like I said, deterrence works on those who have no interest in getting beyond a wall, or mild interest. A family who treks thousands of miles to escape a poverty, famine, crime, war, and disease ravaged dystopia, isn't going to care about a measly wall. They'll get past it for love of their children, and a desire to see them not die before puberty or conscripted into a gang.

Anonymous (ID: aa62b4)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  219828

>>219826
What about terrorists?

Anonymous (ID: 75f34e)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  219831

>>219823
I want Homura to push her panty-covered butt up against my face and let out a great big fart.

Anonymous (ID: aa62b4)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  219833

File: 1547361095831.png (139.75 KB, 290x444, homu-lewd-sign.png)

EquestriaGuy!1DerpyVA.6 (ID: fb277c)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  219834

>>219823
and Mexico won't pay for it because they'll pass off all costs onto the American consumer. Any attempt by Trump to force Mexico to pay through tariffs or whatever is in essence a tax hike. We'd be better off helping the new Mexican President find settlements for these people on the Mexican side.

>>219828
That's another thing Fox keeps trying to push, but it's absurd and fake news. Sarah Sandwich kept trying to push that 4,000 number, but that number is a worldwide sum of all those who've tried to come to the US, including ports and airports. A total of 6 people with any degree of terror ties have ever tried to come through the Southern border. It's just a really clumsy way of getting here. It's far better to come here on a work or student visa, so you can at least collect subsidies and earn above the table pay. Trump is just trying to dangle a boogie man in front of you. It's a scare tactic.

Anonymous (ID: aa62b4)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  219836

>>219834
>That's another thing Fox keeps trying to push, but it's absurd and fake news.
No, i meant that the wall in Israel was built to stop suicide-bomber terrorists from coming into Israel.

EquestriaGuy!1DerpyVA.6 (ID: fb277c)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  219837

>>219834
also, if a terrorist is coming to the US on a jihad, that again goes to deterrence only being effective on those who don't care to come here or only have mild interest. Someone on a mission from allah will get past a wall.

EquestriaGuy!1DerpyVA.6 (ID: fb277c)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  219838

>>219836
If Israel had hundreds of thousands of Palestinians wanting to get into Israel, their wall would be a joke. It's far easier for them to conduct border security if the border is far smaller and you're only dealing with small terror cells.

Anonymous (ID: aa62b4)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  219839

>>219837
>Someone on a mission from allah will get past a wall.
Well Israel had a different result. Their wall greatly decreased the number of terror attacks.

EquestriaGuy!1DerpyVA.6 (ID: fb277c)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  219841

>>219839
completely different environment for these reasons >>219838

Also, imagine the Israeli wall as being a regulation sized soccer goal, which is 24 feet wide, and you're only defending against one ball. Imagine the US border as a goal 100 feet wide, and you've got hundreds of balls.

Anonymous (ID: aa62b4)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  219842

>>219841
Well what do you suggest to secure the integrity of the border? A fleet of autonomous armed drones?

EquestriaGuy!1DerpyVA.6 (ID: fb277c)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  219847

>>219842
Aerial tech like that helps, sure. We also need additional man power and vehicles. Walls and fencing with signage can help guide people to ports of entry. Immigrants are infinitely more likely to want to pass through a port of entry to request asylum, or anywhere really where they know they'll be seen, intercepted, and receive medical aide. If they did come in covertly, they wouldn't receive aide, nor asylum, and would 100% have to fend for themselves. The point is to intercept them and process them, not gun them down. Our system under Trump treats their entry harsher than we would felony arrests, On top of that it separates parents from their children, which last year Trump held hostage in a failed attempt to acquire wall funding.

What we need is Obama's system of vetting the harmless families coming through from those we wouldn't want, like drug dealers or criminals. Obama deported a hell of a lot more people than any other President, though I'm sure Trump probably tops him, the difference is Obama was deporting shit bags, and Trump is deporting families.

EquestriaGuy!1DerpyVA.6 (ID: fb277c)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  219848

What should concern, or even outright scare us, is what Trump said a few months ago. He said he wanted to stop releasing the illegals we arrested, and instead wanted to hold them indefinitely and involuntarily in tent cities.

That's an internment camp. That's a concentration camp, and it should have been a "smash glass in case of emergency" moment for all Americans.

Anonymous (ID: aa62b4)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  219849

>>219848
Aren't they free to leave if they want to self-deport back to Mexico?

EquestriaGuy!1DerpyVA.6 (ID: fb277c)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  219850

>>219849
That's not what Trump said. Saying you won't release them implies you're going to hold them involuntarily.

EquestriaGuy!1DerpyVA.6 (ID: fb277c)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  219851

>>219849
To be clear. He would hold them until their deportation trial is completed, which could be quite a long time if there's a good number of illegals. You can imagine that line getting longer and longer. And as we've seen there's instances where children aren't returned.

Worse yet, there's countless instances where toddlers are returned and they're absolutely catatonic. They don't recognize their parents and are completely bereft of emotion, as if they're shell shocked. It's a tragic thing to see.

I'm off to bed, so good night and nice talking to you.

Noonim (ID: a5d8d5)Country code: mlpchan.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  219853

>>219848
>holding criminals is wrong
Oh, shit, guess we gotta let out all those murderers.

Noonim (ID: a5d8d5)Country code: mlpchan.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  219856

>>219851
We hold lots of criminals for trial. Don't really see the issue. Personally, I'd rather just immediately kick them back where they came from, as it costs the taxpayer less, though.

>muh children

And many children are trafficked illegally over the boarder to be sold into sex slavery, traded by parents for the promise of getting into country, or end up dead due to hot desert conditions.
I agree it's tragic.
It'd be nice if people stopped trying to illegally corss the boarder, leading to this type of shitty occurrence. Maybe if we had a wall or something, it'd happen less...

Starshine!Laura/wmXM (ID: 107513)Country code: lunachan.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  219864

>>219856
>We hold lots of criminals for trial. Don't really see the issue.
Only about half of "illegal immigrants" have committed a crime.

Maroon Auburn!QEUQfdPtTM (ID: 6dcb88)Country code: gb, country type: geoip, valid: 1  219866

File: 1547375225465.jpg (105.39 KB, 720x671, 20190107_100334.jpg)

>>219864

Only half? Given they are 'illegal' the very definition of them means they have broken the law.

Starshine!Laura/wmXM (ID: 107513)Country code: lunachan.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  219868

>>219866
Breaking the law doesn't mean you've committed a crime. Are you a criminal when you get pulled over for speeding?

https://www.politifact.com/california/statements/2018/aug/24/kevin-mccarthy/mostly-true-visa-overstays-account-half-all-people/

Mk17 (p-hone) (ID: a1e4e1)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  219870

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>>219864
>Only about half of "illegal immigrants" have committed a crime.
I need a source on that, because if your saying 50% of people that enter this country illegally go on to commit more crime, thats pretty alarming.

Half is not a small number in this case, half is a very big number in this case.
Edit:
>>219868
Ok nm there is the source.
Your saying those who over stay a visa are committing a crime and those who gain illegal entry by other means are not?

Im just confused. At first i thought you meant that illegal immigrants were only committing a crime on the level of a speeding ticket, and only half commit further crime, and that took me by surprise haha.

Speeding is a crime though, its a civil offence. You cant be arrested for it, but its a crime. Though, really depends on how fast your going haha
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Maroon Auburn!QEUQfdPtTM (ID: 6dcb88)Country code: gb, country type: geoip, valid: 1  219871

File: 1547383911020.jpg (18.15 KB, 400x407, 6fe.jpg)

>>219868

>'Breaking the law does not mean you have committed a crime'

Pez (ID: aee8db)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  219876

>>219868
People might not consider you a criminal, but you did commit a crime if you were speeding. The word you might be looking for is felony. Any law broken is a crime.
>>219870
A lot of it is child support or traffic violations, apparently. Actual violent crimes among people they've found (obviously this doesn't include the ones that don't get caught), were lower than the average in America last I checked. It's been a while since I bothered to look this shit up though so the numbers could have shifted a lot.

Mk17 (p-hone) (ID: 9a13ed)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  219891

File: 1547392211899.png (201.74 KB, 464x557, 4561354.PNG)

>>219876
>Actual violent crimes among people they've found (obviously this doesn't include the ones that don't get caught), were lower than the average in America last I checked.
Thats the impression I had too. I think it was just a matter of phrasing that tripped me up.

Violent crime is pretty rear to begin with so its not suprising. Thats why when trump was going on pointing out a few murders committed by illegals in favor of his position, i didnt see it much differently than people pointing out sandyhook in favor of bad GC bills.
You cant use an outlier to prove the theory.

But, im still a tad confused. Even if half of the illegals are committing misdemeanors and non-violent felony crimes, that still seems high, and i would still consider it a problem, if that is what you are saying.

I think its important to clarify that 100% of illegal aliens are committing a crime, and im just speeking to crimes committed on top of being in the country illegally.

J (ID: dd65c9)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  219892

Lmao "LEGALIZE THEFT SO THAT THE THEFT CRIME RATE DROPS TO ZERO" fuckin bullshit

Pez (ID: aee8db)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  219894

>>219891
And look at most crime stats here, outside of suburbia. Hopping the border isn't a crime we'd have to deal with because we're not fleeing the country, and I have less issues with that specifically because our immigration system doesn't give people any information. It's pretty much a lottery and a lot of people don't have access to the internet in 3rd world countries so they can't look up how the procedure works before they leave their home to try to get in.

A lot of the other stuff is DUIs, which are insanely common here, or issues with child support payments, also very common. Tresspassing, petty theft for people stealing food to eat. Compare the crime rates from immigrants to Chicago and Detroit and they look like model citizens. Check out the murder rates in the ghettos compared to things even suspected of those from immigrants. America has a pretty big crime problem and it took decades of some pretty fucked up shit to even clean up NYC, the numbers coming over the border from the people fleeing cartels are pretty much helping our stats.

And as for the actually dangerous people, the majority have gang affiliations and would just use the tunnels, or get a visa then disappear. The terrorism argument Trump tried to make was idiotic. Canada is much easier to cross through without getting caught, and that's if they don't want to just take a plane in. The people trying to sneak in for truly fucked up shit know that if they're seen crossing the Mexican border that's an immediate red flag, and their best bet is to act as normal as possible.

Mk17 (p-hone) (ID: 9a13ed)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  219897

File: 1547394913712.png (118.86 KB, 307x316, 88897454.PNG)

>>219894
>our immigration system doesn't give people any information. It's pretty much a lottery and a lot of people don't have access to the internet in 3rd world countries so they can't look up how the procedure works before they leave their home to try to get in.
Yeah I do have issue with the complexity and ambiguity of the current immigration system put in place in '96. But i wouldnt consider mexico a 3rd world country, i would consider them a first world country (since they are). In fact, i dont think there are any 3rd world countries in central and south america tbh.
I think the info is available if they want to seek it, but i agree its hard for anyone to really understand, though, simply knowing there IS a process should clue you in that paying a human trafficker to get you in, or crossing the border in the middle of the desert, probably isnt the right way to do it.

>A lot of the other stuff is DUIs, which are insanely common here, or issues with child support payments, also very common.

Again, if 50% of illegals are committing these crimes, its still pretty high, esp in conjunction with the original crime of crossing the border illegally in the first place.
Why is letting people stay here illegally okay when 1 out of every 2 commit crimes like drunk driving? Esp when you dont have to?
And those are your stats btw.

>Compare the crime rates from immigrants to Chicago and Detroit and they look like model citizens.

I guess if you isolate the statistics in a way that proves your point, your point will be proven, thats true.
Also i dont really believe that half the citizens of detroit and Chicago have a criminal record tbh.
Its a hard comparison your trying to make comparing a geographic territory to a demographic of people.

>America has a pretty big crime problem

Not really. Some places in america might, but overall its pretty rear. Im assuming you mean crimes that have victims.
Its like saying "Europe has a pretty big human rights problem" because of Turkey.
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Pez (ID: aee8db)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  219898

>>219897
I'd definitely consider large parts of Mexico and Central America to be subhuman conditions. When families are essentially made into indentured servants of gangs or killed and there's food issues all over it's not much better than many parts of Africa.

And I'll admit that comparing things to Chicago or Detroit was a cheap shot, but the point is that huge portions of these people could easily integrate more safely than a lot of our current population, and they're trying to get out of dangerous areas that make the cities I mentioned look relatively safe. Environment is most of what drives crime, and the amount of people I've met that were born in this country changed completely after they managed to escape the shithole they grew up in screws with me a bit. Living in a place where you don't expect to have enough food to eat if you're not stealing some of it will have a huge affect on whether you're willing to steal or not.

Hell, the amount of people I've met who used to be on heroin and meth and cleaned up their act after moving to Colorado still shocks me. They aren't exactly rolling in money but they're working in restaurants and as movers with steady pay and smoke weed when they're off work because they're not treated as a criminal for it. It's not the same situation, but changing environments does change the person.
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Mk17 (p-hone) (ID: 9a13ed)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  219900

File: 1547398006122.png (289.14 KB, 521x498, 15846545454.PNG)

>>219898
>I'd definitely consider large parts of Mexico and Central America to be subhuman conditions. When families are essentially made into indentured servants of gangs or killed and there's food issues all over it's not much better than many parts of Africa.
There are bad places to be, for sure. Most of it has to do with corrupt local governments. But the worst countries in central and south america are not on par with the worst places in africa on the whole.

>integrate more safely than a lot of our current population, and they're trying to get out of dangerous areas that make the cities I mentioned look relatively safe.

By that logic the us is just as bad, if isolated areas determan the whole.
Seems senseless for people to "escape" to a place thats worse imo.
<Edit: i read your statement backwards, sorry, but still:
I guess my point is that if they were trying to escape, they could escape to a place in their own country. Like your friends did.

I know and have worked with plenty of illegals, pretty much all of them plan to move back once they made enough USD to retire back home.

Ika was saying she could live a comfortable life on 350 USD a month, so to come here and make that a week until you save enough to retire back home is smart, but you have to break the law to do it.

>and smoke weed when they're off work because they're not treated as a criminal for it.

Yeah, treating that as a crime has ruined too many lives.
Trump said he would sign the bill that legalized it, if Congress put it on his desk. Unfortunately the Republicans arnt ready to make that something they stand behind and the Democrats dont want Trump to be known as the guy who did it :/
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Pez (ID: aee8db)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  219904

>>219900
We have a lot of shit people, but there's more opportunity to get by and more access to places that aren't gang-run. I'm not for letting everyone in, not the ones that are actually violent and more dangerous. Honestly I tunneled a bit on the details and didn't really want to pay much attention to what Starshine said that started this after the whole crimes aren't crimes thing.

Our hellish areas are more contained, their decent areas are more contained and very exclusive, you can't just move there as a poor peasant. That's like them trying to move to San Francisco. Most Americans can't live there. I guess my main point is that most of the people with mild, non-violent criminal histories could be fine here. Our main issue is keeping people either in the system or out of the country, and our current system fucks that up so bad that it puts a strain on regular enforcement. There should be more investigation into immigrants with their visas running out to try to catch them immediately after they violate the terms they agreed to when they came here, and better distribution of immigrants so they're not just grouped in one area so they don't slide into similar lifestyles to the poverty they left.

The best reality would be Mexico getting their shit together since it would be easier for central american refugees to integrate there and would put a lot less pressure on us as a historic beacon of immigration. But we kinda fucked the region up quite a bit around the cold war era and their officials are too scared to take care of their own shit, so there's not many pleasant results on our end.

Still though, detection equipment and vehicle barricades seem to make a lot more sense than a wall that people can cut through with hand tools.

Anonymous (ID: e86303)Country code: cascadia.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  219905

>>219892
Honestly, we should ban soy.

Mk17 (p-hone) (ID: 9a13ed)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  219907

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>>219904
>didn't really want to pay much attention to what Starshine said that started this after the whole crimes aren't crimes thing.
It was late and she was tired from kicking my ass all night in super smash so im pretty sure she just misspoke.
I think she meant people who overstay their visas are not criminals in the sense that they are out to hurt people, but criminals like your friends who smoke weed are technically criminals, but i doubt you would call them criminals.
Give her the benifit of the doubt, she is worth paying attention to.

>>219904
>Our hellish areas are more contained, their decent areas are more contained
What i get from my friends is that you wouldn't really notice that big of a difference between here and there depending on where you are. I think mexicans are pretty tired of americans describing their country as this terror riddled hellscape of haves and have-nots based on a few regions. Its no secret that they have serious issues in some places, like all places, but on the whole, its not as bad as its made out to be.
>That's like them trying to move to San Francisco. Most Americans can't live there.
Arnt they a "sanctuary city"? Haha. Kinda fucked up that most Americans cant live there but apparently anyone from any other country can imo.
>I guess my main point is that most of the people with mild, non-violent criminal histories could be fine here.
I agree they could be fine here, but if they dont belong here in the first place, i dont see why they should get a free pass, esp if they are commiting crimes, no matter what the level of crime. If they are already here illegally, they should be on their very best behavior, esp if they dont want to get deported.

To the rest of what you said, i agree for the most part, and i think i would be much more receptive to ideas that included streamlining the immigration process rather than the "OPEN BORDERS NOW!" argument that seems to dominate the other side.

>Still though, detection equipment and vehicle barricades seem to make a lot more sense than a wall that people can cut through with hand tools.

I dont think I've actually shared my opinion on "da wall" on here yet, so here it is:
In practicality, I see the wall like i see background checks for guns, not a cure all by any means, but enough of a deterrent that I cant exactly call it completely useless ether. Yeah, it would be circumvented, but it will slow it down.

Politically, I see it as a symbolic statement that the US is sovereign and plans to stay that way.
I also think the reason trump used it so much in his campaign was because Hillary and Bill were the first to really suggest a physical barrier in the first place, and there was a ton of material to show hypocrisy with her disagreeing with trump about it, basically it was meme material.

Realistically, i could care less one way or the other. I dont mind if its there, i dont mind if its not. I think $5bil is a drop in the bucket and really its all just political theater, like most of "todays issues".

(ID: cc083c)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  219912

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>>219907
>Realistically, i could care less one way or the other. I dont mind if its there, i dont mind if its not. I think $5bil is a drop in the bucket and really its all just political theater, like most of "todays issues".
100% this

if it does get built or if doesnt

whatever

but at the same time the effort is made

Anonymous (ID: ff05ab)Country code: gb, country type: geoip, valid: 1  219914

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Mk17 (ID: e96215)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  219918

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>>219914
Going for the more nuanced approach to discussion i see.

Your input was valuable, and noted.

J (ID: bc5200)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  219919

>>219905
Well first we should ban pumping farm animals full of zooestrogens. That shit's meant to affect animal biology.

Starshine!Laura/wmXM (ID: 107513)Country code: lunachan.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  219945

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>>219870
>Your saying those who over stay a visa are committing a crime and those who gain illegal entry by other means are not?
Other way around. Crossing the border illegally is a criminal offense. Overstaying a visa is not.

But as for committing real (non-victimless) crimes, statistics tend to show that immigrants as a whole commit crimes at a far lower rate than naturalized citizens.

A Cato Institute study found that around 1.53% of native-born Americans are incarcerated, compared to 0.85% of illegal, and 0.45%, of legal immigrants.

>>219871
>>219876
Civil offenses and crimes, in legal terms, are not the same thing. Both are violations of the law, but they're handled differently.

https://www.aclu.org/files/assets/FINAL_criminalizing_undocumented_immigrants_issue_brief_PUBLIC_VERSION.pdf

Starshine!Laura/wmXM (ID: 107513)Country code: lunachan.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  219947

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>>219919
Yeah, tell those animals to stop hogging all the damn estrogens for themselves.

Anonymous (ID: aa62b4)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  219948

>>219945
>immigrants as a whole commit crimes at a far lower rate than naturalized citizens.
^^^^^^^^^^^

Nani???

PC (ID: dc2a56)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  219949

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>>219868
>Breaking the law doesn't mean you've committed a crime.

Starshine!Laura/wmXM (ID: 107513)Country code: lunachan.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  219951

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>>219948
That's the same language the study uses, but it is a little strange. I'm guessing they're using it to distinguish between non-citizen immigrants (including LPRs) and citizens regardless of immigration status. They also note that only 44% of foreign-born immigrants become citizens in the United States.

>>219949
>what is a civil violation

Anonymous (ID: aa62b4)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  219952

>>219951
"Naturalized citizen" specifically means a someone who wasn't a citizen at birth but became a citizen via immigration process.

>>219949
I think what Starshine meant is that some conduct constitutes a civil offense (and may be said to be "against the law" in that sense) but doesn't constitute a criminal offense.

Anonymous (ID: aa62b4)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  219953

>>219951
Hmm... are you saying that immigants commit more crime after they are naturalized?

Starshine!Laura/wmXM (ID: 107513)Country code: lunachan.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  219954

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>>219952
I'm aware. It's just odd that the distinction is between "foreign-born" and "naturalized", since the definition of "naturalized" includes "foreign-born", strictly speaking.

>>219953
Well, the study does mention another study conducted in Miami and San Diego associating an increase in homicides in a particular community with second-generation immigrants. But I think it's likely that the use of the term "naturalized" is erroneous.
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Starshine!Laura/wmXM (ID: 107513)Country code: lunachan.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  219962

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https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2018/08/22/mollie-tibbitts-murder-reignites-debate-over-immigrant-crime/1060792002/

>13% of US population is foreign-born

>only 5.6% of prison inmates nationwide are foreign-born
>crime rates have plummeted despite a drastic increase in immigrant population
>recidivism rates higher among native-born juveniles compared to immigrant juveniles
>only 0.27% of DACA enrollees were identified as gang members or committed crimes

Regardless of nativist fearmongering, the actual data seems to overwhelmingly paint a picture of an inverse relationship between immigrants (legal or otherwise) and crime. This discrepancy, coupled with the spurious nature of the data Trump and others in his administration cite (Sarah Huckabee Sanders' "4000 terror suspects" apprehended at the Southern border? Nope, the amount of terror suspects apprehended at the Southern border is single-digit, and her 4000 figure is mostly comprised of people stopped at airports), and the anti legal immigration policies the administration supports (the RAISE Act, which would cut legal immigration in half) tells me everything I need to know about whether the Trump administration's claims that its immigration crackdown is for "safety and security" are in good faith.

I guess people were catching on that the War on Drugs was racially driven, so they had to divert some effort to a War on Immigration instead.
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Noonim (ID: a5d8d5)Country code: mlpchan.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  219972

>>219864
>illegal immigrants
That's a crime mate.

Literally 100% of the people who are here illegally are criminals.

Noonim (ID: a5d8d5)Country code: mlpchan.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  219973

>>219868
If you're actively and continually breaking the law, you are a criminal.
If you are here illegally, and you remain here illegally, you're actively breaking the law.

Also, trespass is generally looked on harsher than speeding, anyway.

Anonymous (ID: aa62b4)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  219974

>>219972
Illegally entering the country is a crime. Over-staying a visa is only a civil offense, not a crime.

Noonim (ID: a5d8d5)Country code: mlpchan.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  219975

>>219974
Fair enough. I thought we're talking about boarder-crossers here, maybe I wasn't paying enough attention.

Still, if those guys continue to stay on an invalid visa, that's effectively tresspass as far as I am concerned.

Starshine!Laura/wmXM (ID: 107513)Country code: lunachan.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  219976

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>>219975
Border crossers make up only about half of illegal immigrants. That's what I meant by >>219864. Should've been more clear about that.

As far as crimes committed unrelated to unlawful presence, though, see my other posts regarding statistics on that subject.

Noonim (ID: a5d8d5)Country code: mlpchan.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  219982

>>219976
Yeah, that stat seemed weird to me, to be honest.
It seems like you're saying a just a bit under half of foreign born individuals, not even illegals, were in prison.
That seems like a rather absurdly high percentage, to me.

Starshine!Laura/wmXM (ID: 107513)Country code: lunachan.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  219986

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>>219982
Yeah, in retrospect that was really badly worded. What I meant was that unlawful presence isn't a criminal offense half of the time. If we overlook the issue of unlawful presence or border crossings at all, illegal immigrants are actually less criminal on average.

And it's kind of easy to understand why, isn't it? If your ability to remain in the country is already on shaky ground, you're naturally not going to want to draw attention to yourself by committing crimes.

Noonim (ID: a5d8d5)Country code: mlpchan.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  219989

>>219986
Potentially, but, the cited lot doesn't seem to say that, at least going by your post. Unless over 1/3rd of the population being in prison is typical, anyway.

Having already broken the law could potentially lead you to break more, as it's more difficult to live a honest life without doing such, I'd say. After all, you'll be unable to find most work, due to the paperwork involved, unless you either steal someone's identity, or deal under the table. Likewise, if you're unable to find any work, and legitimate channels are off the books for you, crime might end up a sensible alternative. Bonus points for crime committed against others like you, as they can't go to the authorities to begin with.
It seems to me there's quite a few variables that could lead either way depending largely on desperation and needs. I'd suggest that people overstaying on visas would likely end up as you say, as they had came through legitimate means, and likely had already set themselves up through legitimate means. Meanwhile, I'd say boarder-hoppers are less likely, given that they lack that setup, and are undoubtedly more desperate.

Edit: I just realized I was reading the stat wrong, here. I was reading it as 5% of immigrants are in prison, not as 5% of the prison population are immigrants. Does change things a fair ways, though I'd have to see the numbers to properly understand that.
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Starshine!Laura/wmXM (ID: 107513)Country code: lunachan.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  220020

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>>219989
>Edit: I just realized I was reading the stat wrong, here. I was reading it as 5% of immigrants are in prison, not as 5% of the prison population are immigrants. Does change things a fair ways, though I'd have to see the numbers to properly understand that.
The prison population in 2016 was 2.3 million (rounded up). The foreign-born population was 43.7 million. 5.6% of 2.3 million is 128,800, which is about 0.29% of 43.7 million.

Now let's compare the prison population to the US population as a whole. 2.3 million is 0.71% of 323.4 million. So the percentage of the foreign-born population that was in prison in 2016 is less than half the percentage of the overall population that was.

Foreign-born people in prison make up 0.04% of the US population, while native-born citizens in prison are 0.67%. Foreign-born people (43.7 million) account for 13.5% of the overall US population (323.4 million).

Looking at these ratios, it's pretty hard to make the case that immigrants are more likely to be criminals than native-born citizens, even in spite of the very valid point that:
>Having already broken the law could potentially lead you to break more, as it's more difficult to live a honest life without doing such, I'd say.

So given your own logic, and these statistics, do we need stricter immigration policy and enforcement? Or should we waste fewer resources on administrative and bureaucratic bullshit that distracts our law enforcement from dealing with actual crimes, and perhaps dial back some of the policy behind that administrative bullshit so it doesn't cause more problems than it solves?
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Noonim (ID: a5d8d5)Country code: mlpchan.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  220026

>>220020
Do you have the per-capita rates?
That's what I was thinking of initially.

Starshine!Laura/wmXM (ID: 107513)Country code: lunachan.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  220032

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>>220026
0.71% of the US population being in prison is ~710 per 100k
0.29% of the immigrant population being in prison is ~290 per 100k
0.77% of the native-born population being in prison is ~770 per 100k

For the last number (the only one I didn't walk through in the prior post), the calculation I did was ((2.3 million - 128,800) / (323.4 million - 43.7 million))*100

So the foreign-born actually bring down the overall incarceration rate.

Mk17 (ID: e96215)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  220035

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>>219945
>Other way around. Crossing the border illegally is a criminal offense. Overstaying a visa is not.
Fair enough, you are right, the only punishments seem to be being barred from reentry to the US for a amount of time determined by the extent of your over-stay after notified.

But when does overstaying a visa become illegal immigration? Prob never because you are technically documented I suppose.

>But as for committing real (non-victimless) crimes, statistics tend to show that immigrants as a whole commit crimes at a far lower rate than naturalized citizens.


>A Cato Institute study found that around 1.53% of native-born Americans are incarcerated, compared to 0.85% of illegal, and 0.45%, of legal immigrants.

Those are the stats im more familiar with, and would expect to be honest. There was just mis communication in this thread.

I will say, I've been seeing the "it dosnt matter because people over stay their visas" argument being tossed around the internet lately, and the number i see most is around 40% are people who over stayed their visas... rounded up to "half" in lay-mans.

But if thats the case, couldnt you say that 60% arnt over staying visas, so it dose matter?

And even if its 50%... if it dosnt matter because 50% are visa overstayers... the same logic dictates that it does matter because 50% arnt.

Really though, when your working with numbers sub- 1% of the population... its just politics at that point and not an actual issue imo.

Starshine!Laura/wmXM (ID: 107513)Country code: lunachan.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  220038

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>>220035
>But when does overstaying a visa become illegal immigration?
It was my understanding that most of the discourse surrounding "illegal immigrants", as well as what ICE's targets are, is those who are unlawfully present in the country, regardless of how they got here.

And considering the ICE policy that created the existence of "sanctuary cities" is the issuance of "detainers", documents which call for those suspected of being in the country unlawfully to be detained for up to 48 hours without a warrant, probable cause, or even there being an actual immigration-related criminal offense at all, this seems like a constitutional crisis worth addressing indeed. Otherwise law-abiding people are being unconstitutionally presumed guilty and detained after being pulled over for missing headlights, all so ICE can come pick them up to maybe be deported for "security" reasons.

>Really though, when your working with numbers sub- 1% of the population... its just politics at that point and not an actual issue imo.

If it's a non-issue, shouldn't that make it very disturbing that it was overblown and made the central issue of our current president's campaign? That the government is shut down over it while his administration continues to fearmonger to us with outright fabrications about nonexistent terrorists crossing the Southern border and misrepresented statistics on illegal drug trafficking (most of which occurs through legal points of entry)? That the aforementioned unconstitutional, authoritarian abuse of power is being presented as the only way to maintain law and order, while the cities that take a stand against it are being painted as lawless hotbeds of violent criminals and drug dealers, despite these cities enjoying very low crime rates relative to cities that do comply with ICE detainers? Does the fact that he's more willing to say a few mean words than his peers somehow mean he's a champion for free speech, the Constitution, and American liberty, despite wanting to criminalize flag desecration, renew and extend digital surveillance both abroad and domestically, and "bring back waterboarding and a lot worse", on top of using this manufactured "security crisis" as an excuse to violate and restrict people's rights?

Mk17 (ID: e96215)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  220046

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>>220038
>It was my understanding that most of the discourse surrounding "illegal immigrants", as well as what ICE's targets are, is those who are unlawfully present in the country, regardless of how they got here.
Sounds reasonable.

>And considering the ICE policy that created the existence of "sanctuary cities" is the issuance of "detainers", documents which call for those suspected of being in the country unlawfully to be detained for up to 48 hours without a warrant, probable cause, or even there being an actual immigration-related criminal offense at all

Can you source that, please?

>If it's a non-issue, shouldn't that make it very disturbing that it was overblown and made the central issue of our current president's campaign? That the government is shut down over it while his administration continues to fearmonger to us with outrig.... ect


Yeah, you might think. But since real issues cant be solved with slogans, they are hard to run on.

But what i mean is, its a not issue in reality... its a super big issue in politics. Like guns.

I've always kind of wondered if the democrats charged the republicans to take the immigration issue from them. If the pitchforks and torches are rentals... or on some kind of rent to own program haha.

Starshine!Laura/wmXM (ID: 107513)Country code: lunachan.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  220056

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>>220046
>Can you source that, please?
https://www.ice.gov/detainers

>Detainers are placed on aliens arrested on criminal charges for whom ICE possesses probable cause to believe that they are removable from the United States.

So it looks like they're saying it's for aliens for whom ICE does have probable cause. However, there have been a number of cases where these detainers are issued with neither probable cause nor criminal charges:
https://www.aclu.org/issues/immigrants-rights/ice-and-border-patrol-abuses/immigration-detainers

Courts have ruled numerous times that, in complying with these waivers, county law enforcement departments have violated the Fourth Amendment:
http://media.oregonlive.com/clackamascounty_impact/other/Miranda%20Olivares%20MSJ%20decision.140411.pdf
http://www2.ca3.uscourts.gov/opinarch/123991p.pdf
https://www.immigrantjustice.org/sites/default/files/content-type/press-release/documents/2016-11/JimenezMoreno-NDIL-ruling.pdf

ICE has placed a naturalized citizen in deportation proceedings, refusing to review her documents:
https://www.aclu.org/legal-document/morales-v-chadbourne-memorandum-and-order
A case which, once again, found that obeying these detainers is a violation of the Fourth Amendment:
https://www.providencejournal.com/breaking-news/content/20140717-r.i.-will-require-warrant-to-hold-federal-immigration-detainees.ece

And it's been ruled that a law forcing states to comply with the ICE detainers (which, as has already been demonstrated, have been repeatedly found to be unconstitutional as-is) would be a violation of the Tenth Amendment:
https://www.jud11.flcourts.org/docs/CourtRulings/Lacroix%20Habeas%20Order%20[03-03-17%20Judge%20Hirsch].pdf

I'm not saying I smell Gestapo, but the scent of ICE has, shall we say, a rather suspicious chemical profile, especially given the other information -- and the deception and distortion thereof -- we've been discussing.

Mk17 (ID: e96215)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  220060

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>>220056
So according to the actual policy, the person needs to have already been arrested on criminal charges and ICE needs probable cause, like you said. That sound reasonable to me.

> However, there have been a number of cases where these detainers are issued with neither probable cause nor criminal charges:

https://www.aclu.org/issues/immigrants-rights/ice-and-border-patrol-abuses/immigration-detainers
The link provided dosnt prove that at all.
Its just a paragraph that restates that they already need to have been taken into custody on suspicion of a crime, then says ICE uses it for evil with no source or example.
>Courts have ruled numerous times that, in complying with these waivers, county law enforcement departments have violated the Fourth Amendment:
I dont like downloading PDFs so I'll take your word on it, but can you answer me this? Are those courts cases all located in sanctuary states?

>ICE has placed a naturalized citizen in deportation proceedings, refusing to review her documents:

https://www.aclu.org/legal-document/morales-v-chadbourne-memorandum-and-order
>A case which, once again, found that obeying these detainers is a violation of the Fourth Amendment:
https://www.providencejournal.com/breaking-news/content/20140717-r.i.-will-require-warrant-to-hold-federal-immigration-detainees.ece
Yeah, this happened down the street from me actually, so im familiar.
But using that one example of where a fuck up happened, is akin to trump giving 3 examples of illegals that murdered people to prove why they are an issue.
How many innocents have been affected by this kind of thing? Is it the norm or the exception?

also, Projo is NOT a good source of information. I know, because whenever I've been quoted by them, they have completely warped and taken my words out of context to prove the story they wanted to write before investigating, rather than investigating to write a story. They can fuck themselves
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Starshine!Laura/wmXM (ID: 107513)Country code: lunachan.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  220063

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>>220060
>So according to the actual policy, the person needs to have already been arrested on criminal charges and ICE needs probable cause, like you said. That sound reasonable to me.
The thing is, these detainers don't actually demonstrate probable cause. Probable cause is determined by a court. And if you've determined probable cause in court, you're going to send a real warrant, not an ICE detainer.

Also, as we tripped over earlier, "crime" is a rather loose term in the legal context. And having committed a crime unrelated to immigration does not necessarily make one deportable -- deportability is a very messy and confusing part of immigration law.

In some places, things like traffic tickets are actually considered "criminal" if you go too long, and people have been bit in the ass by ICE over that:
https://thenevadaindependent.com/article/traffic-tickets-leading-to-deportation

ALSO: the key detail in these detainers is that they call for someone to be deported longer than the sentence for the actual crime they committed. This is to give ICE time to come pick them up and take them into custody, whether or not they are actually deportable, after which they investigate deportability (which, as they've demonstrated, they tend to do a piss-poor job of LOL).

>The link provided dosnt prove that at all.

>Its just a paragraph that restates that they already need to have been taken into custody on suspicion of a crime, then says ICE uses it for evil with no source or example.
The very first link under Resources on that page is a list of recent cases.

>I dont like downloading PDFs so I'll take your word on it, but can you answer me this? Are those courts cases all located in sanctuary states?

Pennsylvania is not a sanctuary state. Lehigh County of Pennsylvania, however, is now a sanctuary county, after a court case involving a US-born citizen who was, due to racial profiling and so ICE could "investigate" without him potentially getting away (which is why these detainers are a thing in the first place), detained for three days after his offense was settled -- without a warrant or any proof of probable cause -- resulted in them paying up a $95,000 settlement.

>But using that one example of where a fuck up happened, is akin to trump giving 3 examples of illegals that murdered people to prove why they are an issue.

The problem is there isn't just that one example. There are tons of them, and the ICE is trying really hard to crack down on non-compliant cities, counties, and states.

https://www.mcall.com/news/local/mc-ice-lists-lehigh-county-as-non-compliant-20170321-story.html

Gee whiz, I wonder why Lehigh County doesn't want to comply with them anymore...

>How many innocents have been affected by this kind of thing? Is it the norm or the exception?

The first ACLU page that I linked has a link to a list of recent cases. It's a PDF, but here, pic related.

And here's the thing: even if innocents weren't being affected by it as much as they are, how guilty does someone have to be in order for the Fourth Amendment to not apply to them? Isn't the point of due process the principle that one is presumed innocent until proven guilty? That's the issue at hand here. Due process is being ignored because people, who may or may not have committed a deportable crime, may or may not be here unlawfully, and their unlawful presence may or may not itself actually be criminal offense. And attempts to uphold due process and respect constitutional rights are being painted as lawlessness under threats of cut funding, which, ironically...creates lawlessness. Really makes you think.

>Projo is NOT a good source of information

Noted.
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Starshine!Laura/wmXM (ID: 107513)Country code: lunachan.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  220064

https://americasvoice.org/avefc/what-is-safe-city/

People gave me shit for linking this page before, since it says that "being undocumented is not a crime" (it isn't, even though crossing the border illegally is, you can't treat 100% of a group as criminals if only 60% of them have actually committed a criminal offense), but it explains pretty well what sanctuary cities are and aren't, and why they exist.

>“Sanctuary cities” is actually a misnomer. While many Americans believe that it refers to a city that doesn’t prosecute immigrants, so-called “sanctuary cities” actually refer to something far more specific.

>There’s no single definition of what is a sanctuary city, but generally speaking, it’s a city (or a county, or a state) that limits its cooperation with federal immigration enforcement agents in order to protect low-priority immigrants from deportation, while still turning over those who have committed serious crimes. This is why we prefer the term “safe cities”.
>Here we get back to the point of safe cities: in a safe city, the police will release an arrested immigrant after he’s been cleared of charges, posted bail, or completed jail time for whatever he was arrested for. A non-safe city will hold that person until ICE can come pick them up – even though that extra holding is not constitutional.
>Keep in mind that all of the above only applies if the undocumented person has not committed any serious crimes. If they have, the police can keep them in jail by filing charges. Or ICE can present the police with a warrant or other order from a judge, which will result in a hold until ICE can come by.
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Starshine!Laura/wmXM (ID: 107513)Country code: lunachan.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  220066

14 heartbreaking lawsuits that will make you say "fuck having due process and constitutional rights and shit!"

Mk17 (ID: e96215)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  220068

File: 1547432083658.png (1.03 MB, 1227x1215, 1532461340166.png)

>>220063
>The thing is, these detainers don't actually demonstrate probable cause. Probable cause is determined by a court.
this is true, they should have said "reasonable suspicion" if they wanted to do it to just anybody who they suspect might be here illegally.
But I dont think they do.
>In some places, things like traffic tickets are actually considered "criminal" if you go too long, and people have been bit in the ass by ICE over that
Well, its not the ticket that is criminal, its the dodging of the fine that is criminal, and if an illegal alien speeds, gets a ticket, and doesn't pay it, its their fault if that also brings the fact that they are here illegally into play, and they should face the consequences of their actions. That all seems reasonable to me.
>ALSO: the key detail in these detainers is that they call for someone to be deported longer than the sentence for the actual crime they committed. This is to give ICE time to come pick them up and take them into custody, whether or not they are actually deportable, after which they investigate deportability
Wait, do you mean deported for more time, or detained for more time? This wouldnt make sense if you meant deported is why i ask.
>The very first link under Resources on that page is a list of recent cases.
Found it. It was hidden under 2 "help stop trump" pop-ups and a "show more" drop down click generator. The ACLU has fallen so far.
>The problem is there isn't just that one example. There are tons of them, and the ICE is trying really hard to crack down on non-compliant cities, counties, and states.
I count 15 in the link you provided, out of how many illegal immigrants? I'm sure at least 15 people have been killed by illegals too.
My point is, your playing the same game as Trump when he points to the outlier to prove his point by saying "look at these 15 times!" to prove why ICE is evil.
Its a fraction of a percentage of people being affected, and oh noes, they won tens of thousands of dollars as a result... at least trump is using super spooky murders.
>And here's the thing: even if innocents weren't being affected by it as much as they are...
15 times
> how guilty does someone have to be in order for the Fourth Amendment to not apply to them?
This i agree with, but like i said before, if they just changed "probably cause" to "reasonable suspicion" then this wouldn't be a constitutional issue at all... funny how that works huh?
But, they didn't do that, so you are right, if they don't have tangible evidence that the suspect is here illegally, they shouldn't detain them.

But i have yet to see any credible proof that ICE is rounding up hispanic-looking people en masse and keeping them in cages without probably cause.
I dont see the holocaust you are describing.

Likewise, i dont see the wave of crime described by the other side.

This is why i say, this is just political theater, and not a real issue.

Pez (ID: aee8db)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  220069

>>220068
>>220063
As fucked up as it sounds I'd like to see this avoided by ICE keeping track of visa holders like they're on probation. Check-ins required by law with regularly updated home and work addresses so that they don't just end up forgotten, and the day the visa runs out they show up to make damn sure they're leaving and arrest them on the spot if they're not. The whole issue exists because they're just let off the hook and allowed to fuck with the system.

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>>220068
>But I dont think they do.
Then what's with their track record of detaining and attempting to deport people who not only immigrated here and became naturalized legally, but some of whom were born here?

And what's with the fact that this is accompanied by some of the most blatant anti-immigration rhetoric the US has seen in years, backed up by fake and misrepresented statistics, and pushed by the same administration that pushes a law which would cut legal immigration in half?

How can someone claim to want to crack down on illegal immigration "but that's okay, because they're going to come here legally", while also wanting to slash the number of people allowed to come legally in half? Isn't it agonizingly obvious there's more at play here than what The Donald is claiming?

>Wait, do you mean deported for more time, or detained for more time? This wouldnt make sense if you meant deported is why i ask.

I misspoke there, I meant detained. Good catch.

>Found it. It was hidden under 2 "help stop trump" pop-ups and a "show more" drop down click generator. The ACLU has fallen so far.

And that's why you use uBlock and NoScript! In addition to preventing cyberscum from mining cryptocoins on your CPU.

>I count 15 in the link you provided, out of how many illegal immigrants?

That's 15 recent cases, and they do state that it's "just a few". How many more aren't we seeing?

>I'm sure at least 15 people have been killed by illegals too.

How many mass shootings have to be committed by racists before we say "fuck 1A and 2A, let's prosecute racist speech and use it as legal grounds to confiscate guns"? All of them, right?

>Its a fraction of a percentage of people being affected, and oh noes, they won tens of thousands of dollars as a result...

They're winning tens of thousands of dollars as a result, yes, but that's not the only thing happening, and beside the point. Courts are ruling that these detainers are themselves unconstitutional, because detaining someone without demonstrating probable cause (which again, the detainers don't actually demonstrate) is unconstitutional, and cities are being threatened with funding cuts for adhering to the Constitution by refusing to comply. How is this not a major red flag?

>My point is, your playing the same game as Trump when he points to the outlier to prove his point by saying "look at these 15 times!" to prove why ICE is evil.

The concept of ICE is not evil. ICE detainers are unconstitutional, but I guess that's not evil in and of itself. ICE and the government attempting to position themselves as above the Constitution by penalizing jurisdictions who value it more than they value some garbage piece of paper that says "we think this person might be here illegally, but we won't prove that to you, nor will we prove that they've committed a crime at all except possibly the one they've just finished doing their time for, can you please hold on to them for 48 hours so they can't get away while we come get them so we can try to prove their guilt", though? That's evil, fam.

>But i have yet to see any credible proof that ICE is rounding up hispanic-looking people en masse and keeping them in cages without probably cause.

>I dont see the holocaust you are describing.
Well, I did explicitly say "I'm not saying I smell Gestapo, but...a rather suspicious chemical profile." And it is suspicious, wouldn't you agree? All it takes to be labeled "noncompliant" is a few declined detainers. It doesn't matter if you cooperate whenever they actually have probable cause or when there's an actual serious crime going on. You tell them "Fuck off, this is unconstitutional, come back with a warrant" a single-digit number of times, and they list you as noncompliant.

https://www.publicopiniononline.com/story/news/2017/03/20/franklin-county-makes-ices-top-10-list/99422444/
>“We’ve not released anyone into the community that ICE has expressed an interest in,” said David S. Keller, chairman of the Franklin County Commissioners. “In practice, we’re not releasing people into the community they’re interested in. Public safety is not being compromised.”
>Franklin County was among 18 Pennsylvania non-compliant counties named in the report, but the only one listed with a high volume (5) of declined detainers. The report lumps Franklin County together with uncooperative Philadelphia, which has the status of a “sanctuary city” for openly refusing to work with ICE.
>Franklin County considers ICE detainers to be non-binding requests. The jail does not hold inmates for ICE beyond their release dates. The county requires a court order in lieu of a detainer to hold an inmate.
>“The county is considered an uncooperative jurisdiction because of the way our policy is written,” Keller said.
5 declined detainers, just because their policy requires a court order to detain. Y'know, for due process and constitutional rights and shit. And they're marked noncompliant for it.

🐈🐈Dodger🐈🐈!FGiFL0Ecls (ID: 977317)Country code: windows9x.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  220074

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This is why I support the second amendment. Do you want the last thing you ever see to be some fatass ICE agent with his vest on the outside while your family gets dragged off and separated? Or do you want to rape his asshole with the hot barrel of a gun you just killed his partner with? I know my answer.

!ScyphTlOY6 (ID: 821061)Country code: ponychan.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  220076

>>220074
What the fuck is wrong with you lately? Is this a cry for attention? Can I do anything to help?

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>>220076
My self esteem is higher because I'm doing more with my life and cutting off more shitty people. My testosterone is probably higher too, but who's counting?

!ScyphTlOY6 (ID: 821061)Country code: ponychan.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  220082

>>220079
So this is all a positive thing for you? The notion that your life is going to end with an act of violence seems more likely every day, and that's a positive?

🐈🐈Dodger🐈🐈!FGiFL0Ecls (ID: 977317)Country code: windows9x.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  220084

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>>220082
hahahahahahaha :)

!ScyphTlOY6 (ID: 821061)Country code: ponychan.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  220085

>>220084
Did I say something funny?

🐈🐈Dodger🐈🐈!FGiFL0Ecls (ID: 977317)Country code: windows9x.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  220086

!ScyphTlOY6 (ID: 821061)Country code: ponychan.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  220087

>>220086
What was it?

Mk17 (ID: e96215)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  220090

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>>220072
>Then what's with their track record of detaining and attempting to deport people who not only immigrated here and became naturalized legally, but some of whom were born here?
You say "track record" but i guess thats not a definable statement. Idk what their track record is, but i would assume if they have a track record to begin with, the stats must be pretty high, like at least 10% of all legal and natural born people of Hispanic decent are effected by this right?
Or even at least 5%.
But i honestly dont think that is likely.
>And what's with the fact that this is accompanied by some of the most blatant anti-immigration rhetoric the US has seen in years
Anti illegal immigration.
> backed up by fake and misrepresented statistics, and pushed by the same administration that pushes a law which would cut legal immigration in half?
I feel like your stats are pretty misrepresented too tbh. Also, if they want to cut immigration in half, its the right of a sovereign nation to do so, ask Nordic countries who are have a notoriously rigorous immigration policy, and every right to do so.
>Isn't it agonizingly obvious there's more at play here than what The Donald is claiming?
Its not just donald trump claiming that the country cant support more people than it has tbh. People on both sides of the political ideology constantly say we are in debt, our services suck, and america is in trouble.
If thats they case, why is overloading the system illegally being fought for so hard?
>And that's why you use uBlock and NoScript! In addition to preventing cyberscum from mining cryptocoins on your CPU.
I do use noscript, but i had to allow the aclu site to display any content haha.

>That's 15 recent cases, and they do state that it's "just a few". How many more aren't we seeing?

Well, if the baseline is 15 from 2014 - 2018...(so about 4 times a year rounded up) even if you say there are 10 times as many cases we arnt seeing, thats still only 0.0000125% of the illegal immigrant population being effected by this, based on an estimated 12 million illegal immigrants in the country if you account for all 15 in the past 4 years.
We could multiply the cases by 100x and still only get a fraction of 1%.
So... im not convinced this is a real problem that needs immediate action, in fact, i am more convinced that its actually less of a problem than I would expect and well within the margin of error for any system to work under.
ICE is fucking good at what they do and doing it right, apparently.
>How many mass shootings have to be committed by racists before we say "fuck 1A and 2A, let's prosecute racist speech and use it as legal grounds to confiscate guns"? All of them, right?
You know im not arguing against you right? That im simply arguing that your data is being presented in an alarmist manor?
I argue the same thing on the other side as well.
But to your point, i agree, i DONT think its right if peoples constitutional rights are being violated because of it.
But i also i DONT think this is an issue that needs the attention that its getting and DONT see that happening outside of a margin of error that you would expect.
I also argue that just because a small fraction of background checks for firearms come back with a fasle positive, that the system itself shouldn't be abandoned because its such a small fraction of an amount that it would be insane to dwell over it.
>Courts are ruling that these detainers are themselves unconstitutional, because detaining someone without demonstrating probable cause (which again, the detainers don't actually demonstrate) is unconstitutional, and cities are being threatened with funding cuts for adhering to the Constitution by refusing to comply. How is this not a major red flag?
I've already agreed with this. Because they said "probable cause" rather than "reasonable suspicion" then yes, it is a violation of the 4th amendment.
The caveat being, that only applies to when the person is here legally because illegal immigrants are not citizens, and by law, have no constitutional protection.
And again, since your data has proven that it only happens to 0.0000125% of people based on just the ILLEGAL population, i dont see the issue as being the problem its made out to be.

Fuck, my calculator wont even display the percentage of people affected by this if you include the legal population too, thats how increadably small it is.
These numbers ALSO disprove Trump btw... youre both insane imo haha.
> "we think this person might be here illegally, but we won't prove that to you, nor will we prove that they've committed a crime at all except possibly the one they've just finished doing their time for, can you please hold on to them for 48 hours so they can't get away while we come get them so we can try to prove their guilt", though? That's evil, fam.

Good thing we have proven that it happens so infrequently that is just a statistical anomaly. Yay Science!

>Well, I did explicitly say "I'm not saying I smell Gestapo, but...a rather suspicious chemical profile."

I dont understand the chemical profile part i guess.
But since we are working with numbers so small my calc cant display them even saying "this is problem" is alarmist imo.
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Starshine!Laura/wmXM (ID: 107513)Country code: lunachan.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  220115

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>>220090
>like at least 10% of all legal and natural born people of Hispanic decent are effected by this right?
I don't think it should be a question of what percentage of Hispanic people are affected by it. Or even a question of what percentage of ICE detainers are erroneous. In either case, 100% of ICE detainers are issued without regard for due process, are unconstitutional, and should therefore be done away with, and ICE should issue proper warrants instead. But they don't, because they don't want to bother proving probable cause in court, because those pesky brown people will get away while they're doing that!

>Anti illegal immigration.

I didn't know the "Muslim travel ban" was targeting illegal immigrants by revoking lawfully granted visas and detaining law abiding travelers. (I guess that's not explicitly about immigration, but it's rooted in the same thing -- nativism and fear of foreigners.) Nor that the RAISE Act, which is the law I was referring to that would cut legal immigration in half, is anti-illegal immigration (and, in fact, wouldn't likely worsen illegal immigration, since getting in legally would be even more of a pain in the ass than it already is).

>I feel like your stats are pretty misrepresented too tbh

Which ones? The ones relating to crime rates? Or the number of erroneous ICE detainers? Because as I said, to me, the number is unimportant. What's important is that in and of themselves, they are unconstitutional.

>Also, if they want to cut immigration in half, its the right of a sovereign nation to do so, ask Nordic countries who are have a notoriously rigorous immigration policy, and every right to do so.

I never said it wasn't. I might not agree with it, but they do have a right to do so. What they don't have a right to do is claim they're not anti-immigration, only anti illegal immigration, while also trying to cut legal immigration. That's just dishonest.

>If thats they case, why is overloading the system illegally being fought for so hard?

I don't think anybody is seriously saying that we shouldn't have any kind of immigration law enforcement at all. People just take umbrage with the way it's executed and the level of severity with which it's treated. And in general, most economists agree that immigration has a positive impact on economic growth.

>I do use noscript, but i had to allow the aclu site to display any content haha.

Ah, makes sense. I use them both personally.

>ICE is fucking good at what they do and doing it right, apparently.

>You know im not arguing against you right? That im simply arguing that your data is being presented in an alarmist manor?
Why can't they just demonstrate probable cause and get warrants like the Constitution says they're supposed to? ICE shouldn't get a free pass to operate above the Constitution and bypass due process, even if it makes them do their job more effectively. That's what I take issue with, and the reason for my alarmist tone. NSA surveillance makes us "safer", but I take issue with that too. These are fundamental rights being violated, and those rights are being violated even if the person is here illegally.

>While defendants in criminal proceedings have a Sixth Amendment right to a government-appointed attorney if they are poor, that right doesn’t extend to immigration court, where the violations are considered civil and not criminal, said Cornell law professor Stephen W. Yale-Loehr.

>"Yes, immigrants do have constitutional rights, but those rights are not equal to U.S. citizens," he said. "They have due process rights, but when it comes to immigration court proceedings, those rights are often watered down by courts."
Fucking ouch, man. Maybe they'd actually be better off if being here illegally was considered a crime, then they'd at least have attornies!

>The caveat being, that only applies to when the person is here legally because illegal immigrants are not citizens, and by law, have no constitutional protection.

...oh. Well uh, actually, you're incorrect about that. See previous link, and see:
>https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/25/us/politics/due-process-undocumented-immigrants.html
and see the Fourteenth Amendment:
>No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

Case law is very, very consistent on this. SCOTUS has consistently ruled that the rights pertaining to the judicial system apply to everyone -- even if they're not supposed to be here. They've done so as early as 1886...
https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/118/356/#369
The Fourteenth Amendment to the Constitution is not confined to the protection of citizens. It says:

"Nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws."

These provisions are universal in their application to all persons within the territorial jurisdiction, without regard to any differences of race, of color, or of nationality, and the equal protection of the laws is a pledge of the protection of equal laws. It is accordingly enacted by § 1977 of the Revised Statutes, that

"all persons within the jurisdiction of the United States shall have the same right in every State and Territory to make and enforce contracts, to sue, be parties, give evidence, and to the full and equal benefit of all laws and proceedings for the security of persons and property as is enjoyed by white citizens and shall be subject to like punishment, pains, penalties, taxes, licenses, and exactions of every kind, and to no other."

...and as recently as 2001.
https://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/99-7791.ZS.html
Shaughnessy v. United States ex rel. Mezei, 345 U.S. 206–in which an alien was indefinitely detained as he attempted to reenter the country–does not support the Government’s argument that alien status itself can justify indefinite detention. Once an alien enters the country, the legal circumstance changes, for the Due Process Clause applies to all persons within the United States, including aliens, whether their presence is lawful, unlawful, temporary, or permanent. Nor do cases holding that, because Congress has plenary power to create immigration law, the Judicial Branch must defer to Executive and Legislative Branch decisionmaking in that area help the Government, because that power is subject to constitutional limits. Finally, the aliens’ liberty interest is not diminished by their lack of a legal right to live at large, for the choice at issue here is between imprisonment and supervision under release conditions that may not be violated and their liberty interest is strong enough to raise a serious constitutional problem with indefinite detention.


As an aside, it's worth noting that the concept of restricting immigration didn't even exist in the United States until the emergence of the Nativist/Know Nothing party in the mid-1800's (which, at the time, was mostly because they hated the Irish Catholics), and didn't become federal law until the Page Act of 1875, better known as the Asian Exclusion Act, followed by the explicitly named Chinese Exclusion Act of 1882.

Immigration laws over the next century were largely overtly racist and discriminatory in nature. In the early 20th century, millions of Russian Jews fled to the US to escape pogroms, along with an influx of Italians. The US responded by passing the Emergency Quota Act of 1921 and the Immigration Act of 1924, restricting immigration from Southern Europe, which ultimately resulted in most Jews attempting to flee the Holocaust being denied entry to the United States...whoops. Some of that was "fixed" by the Displaced Persons Act, 3 years after the war was over.

It wasn't until the Immigration and Nationality Act of 1965 that overtly racist immigration policies were done away with, in favor of placing the preference on employment prospects and family relations. Which has had a number of successful and failed reforms over the years since then, but I'd say our immigration policy has a pretty long way to go before it's anything resembling "functional".

And hey, 'member Operation Wetback? Are there any, uh, parallels between that and what ICE is doing?
...what the fuck, Trump praised Operation Wetback early in his campaign? I actually didn't even know that, but that's super fucked.

>I also argue that just because a small fraction of background checks for firearms come back with a fasle positive, that the system itself shouldn't be abandoned because its such a small fraction of an amount that it would be insane to dwell over it.

Do you think being refused a firearm sale is as severe a threat as being deported, or as severe an infringement on rights as unlawful deprivation of liberty?

Actually, there are many worse things about the background check system than simply denial of a firearm sale (like the illegal retention of names of gun owners), but even the delay of a firearm sale has resulted in at least one death. There is, I think, a case to be made that dangerous people shouldn't be allowed to buy guns, just as even the First Amendment has exceptions on speech that incites "imminent lawless action" or revealing classified information (the latter of which I think is oftentimes far too heavy-handed -- it should only apply to information that may get people killed). But it has to be done responsibly and with great care to preserve the spirit of the Second Amendment -- because while the Second Amendment surely was not written to guarantee that bank robbers can have a gun, it was definitely written to guarantee Carol Bowne could defend herself against her ex-boyfriend.

And the Fourth, Fifth, Sixth, and Fourteenth Amendments were surely written to guarantee that bank robbers, murderers, rapists, and yes, even illegal immigrants, can have a fair trial, not be forced to self-incriminate, and not be subject to unreasonable searches and seizures.

>I dont understand the chemical profile part i guess.

You don't catch even a hint of secret-police-esque odor in the idea of (again, unconstitutionally) detaining people without probable cause or even reasonable suspicion, and threatening funding cuts on jurisdictions that don't comply with requests to do so? The last bit is the most evil part imo. Not only do they refuse to acknowledge, despite being told time and time again, that it's unconstitutional, they try to force the rest of the country to comply with their unconstitutional practices.
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(ID: cc083c)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  220121

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>>220115
>And hey, 'member Operation Wetback?
lol i still cant believe it was actually called that

Starshine!Laura/wmXM (ID: 107513)Country code: lunachan.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  220127

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>>220121
I can. Many people were racist as fuck in the 50's, and some of them were involved in the government and law enforcement. Some people are still racist as fuck now, and I don't doubt for a minute that a (hopefully smaller than in the 50's) percentage of them are, indeed, involved in the government and law enforcement.

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Actually, funny story. The reason I don't remember Trump praising Operation Wetback is because the only attention that little detail got in the places I happened to get that news from was "libtards mad that Trump likes President Eisenhower".

This is why primary sources are important, lads.

(ID: cc083c)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  220134

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>>220127
well i know how people were in the 50's

its just the fact it is so explicit like that is the surprising part

then again the "coon chicken inn" was once a real restaurant

Mk17 (ID: e96215)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  220317

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>>220115

>ICE should issue proper warrants instead.

Yes, I have agreed with you repeatedly on that point. I still agree with you.

I'm really not arguing in favor that they dont, i keep saying that.

My whole point is, if something happens a fraction of a percent of the time, its a clerical error and a statistical anomaly and not the basis for a solid argument.
Again, you are right, I'm not arguing that you are wrong about the constitutionality. If ICE wants to solve this they should remove the words "probable cause" and replace them with "reasonable suspicion" as "reasonable suspicion" is what allows police officers to make arrests in the field without having to go to a judge and get a warrant, and probable cause is what requires a warrant to pick someone up based on evidence gathered after the fact, and in my opinion, the fact that they are illegal immigrants is reasonable suspicion that they are here illegally.

If someone is here illegally, and they get arrested for a crime, they should be deported if it is found out that they are illegal.

But making a national crisis out of something that is barely a thing to begin with is just for show.

I'm not going to agree with you that 3 mess ups a year on average, (that were corrected), or even 100 times that amount is a problem, considering the 65 million people they are trying to handle. It cant, and it wont, be perfect and to expect it to be is to dismiss reality, but they should change the way they go about it to be inline with the constitution, if there is an issue.

I'm never going to agree that 15 murders by illegal immigrants is a big deal ether, btw.

So again, im not arguing that doing something against the Constitution is correct, im arguing that should be the nexus of your argument, not the 15 times something has gone wrong in the past 5 years. Not to mention, if 100% of these cases are a problem, why are only 15 listed?

Here is a question, what system to deport illegal immigrants would you put in place?
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a lost pony !piNKiEPie. (ID: 4a5ed6)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  220321

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>>220317
>65 million people

Where do you get that number and what quality exactly do those 65 mil exhibit (applying for asylum, sneaking across the border, working here illegally etc) because in a nation of 300 million citizens that seems like a really, really big number.

Mk17 (ID: e96215)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  220340

>>220321
i misspoke.

12million was the figure i was using.

a lost pony !piNKiEPie. (ID: 4a5ed6)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  220344

>>220340
Thats still a pretty hefty number, what's it of exactly?

Mk17 (ID: e96215)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  220354

>>220344
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegal_immigrant_population_of_the_United_States

Since a yale study estimated that their are about 16 to 29 million illegal immigrants in the US in 2018, im giving the benefit of the doubt to the 2007 number of 12 million as a baseline, as the article says the number has declined, but the study done by yale seems to suggest the opposite. So im just assuming it stayed static for the purpose of this thread.

Yes, it is a big number.

Anonymous (ID: aa62b4)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  220398

>>220321
> >65 million people
If you go back in time one year for each of those persons, you'd meet the dinosaurs right before they die!

🐈🐈Dodger🐈🐈!FGiFL0Ecls (ID: 095a78)Country code: windows9x.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  220399

>>220398
Wow dude the big number seems even bigger now, I'm sweating over here desu :0

Anonymous (ID: aa62b4)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  220400

>>220317
I think that reasonable suspicion only allows the cops to search, not seize. To seize someone, don't they need probable cause? I've never heard the police being allowed to arrest on mere reasonable suspicion.

(ID: 2c60d7)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  220405

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>>220400
no, they need probable cause to search as well

reasonable suspicion is enough for detainment and questioning

the most they can do is a pat down to check for weapons that may appear dangerous
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a lost pony !piNKiEPie. (ID: 4a5ed6)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  220437

>>220405
Terry stops, yes.

Cannot search for anything that's not likely to be a weapon, the case specifically examined a lump of crack in a pocket which was concealed and could not have been detected if patting for weapons only so was ruled inadmissable under 4th amendment, upon appeal.

Starshine!Laura/wmXM (ID: 107513)Country code: lunachan.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  220444

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>>220317
>So again, im not arguing that doing something against the Constitution is correct, im arguing that should be the nexus of your argument, not the 15 times something has gone wrong in the past 5 years. Not to mention, if 100% of these cases are a problem, why are only 15 listed?
I think this is probably an issue in the way I've presented my case, then. Because the crux of my opposition to ICE detainers is that they're unconstitutional 100% of the time; the false positives are really just icing (pun 2 billion percent intended) illustrating that even people ICE shouldn't be going after at all suffer when the Constitution is ignored.

>Here is a question, what system to deport illegal immigrants would you put in place?

I don't really have the proper cognitive resources necessary to adequately answer this right now, but be warned, you might not like the bleeding-heart answer I eventually give.

Don't worry, it's not "eliminate any and all immigration restrictions, open the borders, and never deport anyone ever".

a lost pony !piNKiEPie. (ID: 4a5ed6)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  220453

File: 1547543030457.gif (216.02 KB, 398x383, 1546852907631 (1).gif)

>>220444
I don't want to speak out directly to my lost friend on this but i want to point out to someone (and you've just volunteered) that a single case generally determines law, in particular for constitutionality which can be tested no other way.

Dismissing 15 instances of confirmed unconstitutionality as diminimus while things like stop-n-frisk or the right to abortion are decided by a single matter, while still arguing in favor of respecting the constitution is the kind of insanity that drives me into a stupor, unable to have a coherent discussion on the issue.

I admire your ability to keep it together and continue in such a discussion without losing your calm competence.

(ID: fce2c1)Country code: mlpchan.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  220463

File: 1547544251090.png (490.37 KB, 1682x1521, itsnothesizethatcounts.png)

>>220453

> a single case generally determines law, in particular for constitutionality which can be tested no other way.


And that is the biggest, worst, most glaring problem with law today. Fucking precedent. You can't have a legal system where nobody can ever be wrong. That's just an ego stroking hugbox for judges! Constitutional law sucks, because it doesn't address that huge elephant in the room. If we as a society decide that activity A is harmless, and was made illegal under mistaken assumptions, it's still illegal and the despicably evil cheats and crooks take advantage of this. All they have to do is fool the government once, with some obscure language hidden in the center of a farm bill, and everyone acts like they have no choice forevermore but to enforce this new injustice and oppression, because it's the law!

Being able to admit that you, or your predecessors were wrong is an invaluable tool against stagnation and oppression, and it should be fundamental to any legal system we put our trust in. And all the USA constitution cares about is stuff like who only counts as 2/3 of a voter, and how to ensure that rich land owners remain in power.

a lost pony !piNKiEPie. (ID: 4a5ed6)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  220469

File: 1547545139135.jpg (239.01 KB, 1280x788, large (2).jpeg)

>>220463
Gotcha. That's where you are wrong.

Jim Crow law that legalized racial segregation was based on Plessy v Fergussen in 1896 which held that separate but equal facilities was constitutional. That was overturned in 1954 in Brown v Board of Education which held that separate is NOT equal and therefore unconstitutional.

Our system of jurisprudence is what allows us to admit we are wrong and fix it.

Mk17 (p-hone) (ID: 46289a)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  220483

>>220400
>>220405
https://thelawdictionary.org/article/definitions-of-probable-cause-vs-reasonable-suspicion/

You are right.

But also.

https://thelawdictionary.org/article/probable-cause-arrests-vs-arrest-warrants/
So if ^ is correct it would seem ICE could be well within the bounds without a signed warrant, as long as they can demonstrate and articulate their
probable cause at a heiring.

>>220444
>Don't worry, it's not "eliminate any and all immigration restrictions, open the borders, and never deport anyone ever".
I look forward to hearing what you come up with honesty.
This post was edited by its author on .

Mikie(phone)!GlimDubEqI (ID: 01da09)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  220484

>>220483
This is true.

Mk17 (p-hone) (ID: c91c92)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  220523

File: 1547572018098.png (293.17 KB, 458x498, 987987645.PNG)

>>220484
Haha were you up ar 630am or hadn't gone to bed yet?

Mikie(phone)!GlimDubEqI (ID: 01da09)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  220540

>>220523
I don't ever sleep

J (ID: e677c1)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  220575

File: 1547586042088.gif (998.13 KB, 500x229, 529550576e155900442c1cfb5c1c62…)

Zeke Roa (ID: 8bdda3)Country code: stallman.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  220605

Mk17 (ID: e96215)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  220633

File: 1547595043878.png (126.55 KB, 433x417, 1458776.PNG)

>>220540
That cant be good for you haha.

(ID: 6559a5)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  220649

File: 1547599962603.png (334.63 KB, 477x567, 0980980978978.png)

>>220633
i got my payment cleared from qriket

taking care of that issue tonight with alcohol

a lost pony !piNKiEPie. (ID: 4e047c)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  220650

File: 1547600067562.gif (109.7 KB, 300x226, sleeping_fluttershy_by_inuhosh…)

>>220649
nity nite.

Mk17 (ID: e96215)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  220653

File: 1547600405668.png (328.93 KB, 811x650, 7894533255.PNG)

>>220649
>qriket
Whats a qriket and why does it owe you money?

(ID: 6559a5)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  220654

File: 1547600591439.png (125.88 KB, 273x473, 9898987944.png)

>>220650
im not sleeping just yet

>>220653
qriket is a game you play where you win money

it's an app

i won $25 dollars from them

they've paid me out no problems

but, they had problems issuing people money due to security issues

so they reimbursed my balance and i cashed out a again

the echeck has just cleared today so i can use the money they sent me
This post was edited by its author on .

Mk17 (ID: e96215)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  220656

File: 1547600972456.png (230.64 KB, 436x448, 5678124500.PNG)

>>220654
What do they get in return?

(ID: 6559a5)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  220657

File: 1547601106060.png (251.23 KB, 391x520, 656547658798.png)

>>220656
google ad sense

they jam users up with obnoxious ads

and people buy their merch

they're always plugging their merch

Mk17 (ID: e96215)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  220659

File: 1547601410596.png (466.67 KB, 698x714, Screenshot_2018-08-06-19-05-30…)

>>220657
Doesn't seem so bad i guess.

Its not like they are selling pictures of your feet on the internet or something.

(ID: 6559a5)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  220660

File: 1547601540627.png (387.35 KB, 554x677, 9907907896.png)

>>220659
nah, you just sit through annoying ass ads

Hißp (ID: 7b47a0)Country code: ponychan.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  220664

>mike earns more than post-grade scientist/ engineer

(ID: 6559a5)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  220665

File: 1547602181091.png (325.44 KB, 474x714, 65654654877.png)

>>220664
i dont believe you

Hißp (ID: 7b47a0)Country code: ponychan.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  220667

>>220665

You know what... I won't talk about it, because that may get me more depressed.

Mk17 (ID: e96215)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  220668

File: 1547602516357.png (360.88 KB, 692x662, 34252345.PNG)

>>220660
I have to do that all the time too, and i dont even get paid for it.

(ID: 6559a5)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  220669

File: 1547602600325.png (358.16 KB, 576x536, 6546547687699.png)

>>220667
it's just a currency and exchange rate difference

i wouldnt overthink it

>>220668
ublock shit if i am not gonna get a cut of it

Hißp (ID: 7b47a0)Country code: ponychan.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  220670

>>220669
>i wouldnt overthink it

there is more.

a lost pony !piNKiEPie. (ID: 4e047c)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  220672

File: 1547603031609.png (916.91 KB, 1223x652, pinkysmileonwall.png)

>>220398
I knew that number was familiar somehow.

>>220659
how much did you make selling pictures of your feet on the internet? I didn't get a chance to buy my copy.


>>220354
estimating numbers can be a sticky wicket but what I find impressive is that in 2014, 8 million are employed and half of them are Mexican.

As much as the "took our jabs" position can be argued, seems with 8 of 12 total millions of illegals actually working, they are 2 out of 3 employed including children and wives. You can't say they are lazy fucks that sit around collecting benefits without putting anything into our GDP and, each of those employed made good money for our corporations so that really illustrates why we have so many of them: the corporations that influence our government simply don't want them to go, as they make money on them.


I wonder though, do we collect taxes for all those worker wages paid. Hmmm. A better issue than getting rid of all of them is to make sure they are all paying their fair share to support our government.

a lost pony !piNKiEPie. (ID: 4e047c)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  220675

File: 1547603115421.jpg (67.62 KB, 800x800, pinkytonguestickingout.jpg)

>>220668
so, you're just not as smart as Mikie, HA!

Hißp (ID: 7b47a0)Country code: ponychan.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  220678

>>220675

hi there

(ID: 6559a5)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  220679

File: 1547603183756.png (328.32 KB, 408x730, 987768769.png)

>>220670
i know there is

but it isnt something i would spend my time thinking of

even more if it depresses

depressed hips isnt good hips

happy hips is good hips

(ID: 6559a5)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  220680

File: 1547603256355.png (183.4 KB, 588x526, 787989789789.png)

you know, the real thing people tend to forget here is one thing

darth vader and trump are major pink floyd fans

vader's favorite album is the dark side of the moon

trumps favorite is the wall

Hißp (ID: 7b47a0)Country code: ponychan.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  220682

>>220679

I think I am losing it

Mk17 (ID: e96215)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  220683

File: 1547603299412.png (1.03 MB, 1303x1298, 1532997178135.png)

>>220678
>>220679
I like happy hips.

Mk17 (ID: e96215)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  220684

File: 1547603377000.png (188.42 KB, 432x411, 963214785.PNG)

a lost pony !piNKiEPie. (ID: 4e047c)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  220686

>>220680
vader likes butt sex?

suddenly I like him now.

a lost pony !piNKiEPie. (ID: 4e047c)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  220687

File: 1547603484699.png (109.96 KB, 620x600, pinkflut.png)

(ID: 6559a5)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  220689

File: 1547603502259.png (478.56 KB, 769x702, Screenshot from 2016-06-03 00-…)

>>220682
i do that every single waken day of my life

trust me, overthinking it is not good

>>220683
same

>>220684
you let me have my fun!

Hißp (ID: 7b47a0)Country code: ponychan.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  220690

>>220687
>>220683

Hello.

>>220689

It is worse...

(ID: 6559a5)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  220692

File: 1547604043441.png (447.14 KB, 768x693, 68798980.png)

>>220690
you'll be good, buddy.

trust me

Mk17 (ID: e96215)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  220693

File: 1547604198004.png (202.45 KB, 407x415, 12dfgdf.PNG)

>>220690
Something you want to get off your chest?

Hißp (ID: 7b47a0)Country code: ponychan.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  220695

>>220692

I had always thought so.
But this is different, Mike.


>>220693

...

Chest, it is an interesting english word.

Do you agree?

Mk17 (ID: e96215)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  220697

File: 1547604626661.png (218.38 KB, 424x437, wsmwsm.PNG)

>>220695
Its one of those words that if you say it over and over again, it starts to lose its meaning and just sound silly.

Like "truck".

Hißp (ID: 7b47a0)Country code: ponychan.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  220699

>>220697

Yes, words are interesting.

Many things are interesting.

What are you up to ?

a lost pony !piNKiEPie. (ID: 4e047c)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  220701

>>220690
What's wrong, Hispy?

Are you ok?

Hißp (ID: 7b47a0)Country code: ponychan.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  220702

>>220701

No, I am not.

Are you?

a lost pony !piNKiEPie. (ID: 4e047c)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  220704

>>220702
it's hard to know

what is troubling you?

Mk17 (ID: e96215)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  220705

File: 1547605525406.png (1.03 MB, 1227x1215, 1532461340166.png)

>>220699
Hanging out. This is the first night in weeks i didnt have a million things to do when i got home from work, so im indulging in nothingness.

Might play a vidja with a friend before bed.

How about you?

Hißp (ID: 7b47a0)Country code: ponychan.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  220708

>>220704

Why not soft?

Not-soft to explain.

>>220705

Spare time, nice.

Vidj time, nice.

I am here, pressing the "enter" key

a lost pony !piNKiEPie. (ID: 4e047c)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  220710

File: 1547606035682.jpg (326.38 KB, 1172x900, 1525236519667.jpg)

>>220708
uncertainty of whether the cat is alive or dead in the box....

there is a story about a guy who fell off a ten-story building. As he passed each floor, bystanders hear him say "good so far" as he went by.

>>220705
Hey wut up.

Hißp (ID: 7b47a0)Country code: ponychan.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  220712

>>220710

Is that a suggestion?

Mk17 (ID: e96215)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  220713

File: 1547606996622.png (385.63 KB, 629x590, 154646888.PNG)

>>220708
I hope you feel better soon hisp

>>220710
Hanging out. This is the first night in weeks i didnt have a million things to do when i got home from work, so im indulging in nothingness.

Might play a vidja with a friend before bed.

except i already played the game and now im going to bed.
This post was edited by its author on .

Hißp (ID: 7b47a0)Country code: ponychan.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  220714

>>220713

Me 2

u enjoy

a lost pony !piNKiEPie. (ID: 4e047c)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  220715

>>220712
an observation that represents life

As the sidewalk comes up, everything is good so far....good so far....good so far.

So, I am doing good so far. Whatever is troubling you, I hope it clears up soon.

>>220713
Happy sleepy then!

Hißp (ID: 7b47a0)Country code: ponychan.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  220717

>>220715

Do you like Roses?

a lost pony !piNKiEPie. (ID: 4a5ed6)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  220725

File: 1547610920379.jpg (49.01 KB, 340x270, il_340x270.821107848_n8b9.jpg)

>>220717
I like Rose.

As flowers go i prefer irises and lilies.

Why, do you like roses?

Starshine!Laura/wmXM (ID: 107513)Country code: lunachan.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  220753

File: 1547621684451.jpg (651.3 KB, 800x900, 35040715_p0.jpg)

>>220483
Okay so, as far as deportations go, my main reform would be to require ICE to issue warrants.

However. I would drastically rework the immigration system as a whole to reduce the number of illegal immigrants, and increase the number of legal ones. Ways I would do this include but aren't limited to:
>instead of building a wall, build more legal points of entry (which of course, means more personnel, and therefore more ability to stop people trying to cross illegally, but also more opportunities to enter legally)
>6 month amnesty period when an otherwise law-abiding person is discovered to be in the country illegally (if non-criminal), giving them time to go through proper channels for legal residency, or to self-deport, after which they become deportable
>violent criminals void the 6 month amnesty and are deported immediately (with a proper warrant of course)
This post was edited by its author on .

a lost pony !piNKiEPie. (ID: 4a5ed6)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  220761

>>220753
What about moving immigration court out of the executive and into the judiciary

The due process they are getting is a sham. Seems like having their hearing presided over by the same group that is advocating against them is a conflict of interest at best.

Starshine!Laura/wmXM (ID: 107513)Country code: lunachan.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  220763

File: 1547622491187.jpg (486.8 KB, 945x1420, 50847255_p0.jpg)

>>220761
Yeah, that too.

Starshine!Laura/wmXM (ID: 107513)Country code: lunachan.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  221190

File: 1547706725421.jpg (218.86 KB, 1502x2048, __toudou_yurika_aikatsu_series…)

https://www.npr.org/2019/01/16/686056668/for-seventh-consecutive-year-visa-overstays-exceeded-illegal-border-crossings

Looks like the ratio of overstays to illegal border crossings is shrinking.

>The study also finds that in 2017, for the first time, the unauthorized population from Mexico constituted less than one-half of all the undocumented people in the U.S.

>At the same time, Mexico was the leading country for visa overstays in 2016, "about twice the number from India, China and Venezuela," according to the study. The number of undocumented people coming from Venezuela, which is wracked by political and economic turmoil, increased from 60,000 in 2013 to 145,000 in 2017. Virtually all are visa overstays.

So why is a wall to ineffectively keep out a minority of new undocumented immigrants a priority worth setting the high score for longest government shutdown?

(ID: cf8095)Country code: amsterdam.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  221203

File: 1547712251526.gif (998.83 KB, 500x281, e2b131d0bd7d9e4d5fbed7e71d7cda…)

>>221190
>So why is a wall to ineffectively keep out a minority of new undocumented immigrants a priority worth setting the high score for longest government shutdown?

I've already explained this, but as usual, no one actually listens.

It's like a magic show. The way you fool the audience is to make them not look in the one place you don't want them to. In fact, this kind of thing is so common they actually made a MOVIE about it.

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0120885/

The most ridiculous thing is that THIS ACTUALLY HAPPENED shortly after 911.

People used to ask why the fuck we messed with Iraq during the "war on terror" since it didn't make a lot of sense and the entire reason was to distract the public from the fact that trying to kill a man in a cave ON DIALYSIS failed, despite the US having the most advanced military technology on the planet. Bush's approval rating was dropping significantly and Osama Bin Laden was able to stay ahead of any attempts at capture or assassination. So what are your options? Continue to struggle to fight a bunch of sand people who constantly outsmart you at every turn, or look to the guy that YOU put in charge, who is too paranoid to leave his country, and you know EXACTLY where he is. You have troops already there, just ship them over a country or two to Iraq, make up some shit about weapons of mass destruction, go in and basically shoot a fish in a barrel and then hold a parade for actually 'catching the bad guy' and conveniently forget it's not the bad guy we actually went there to get in the first place. They LITERALLY fabricated an ACTUAL war with another country just to hide the fact that they failed completely at wasting billions of dollars of tax payer money on trying to dig a guy out of a hole in the ground and failed at it.

It's actually rather ridiculous how easy it is to distract the US population. Think back to all the shit that has caught the attention of the nation. There was Kony, there was the earthquake in Haiti, there was the disappearance of the jet liner in like China or something... how many people actually know how those stories ended? My guess? Probably not many, because they were all hyped up and everyone was focused on them until the next big story hit, in which everyone promptly forgot about the thing they thought was 'The most important thing' yesterday.

The news is there to make money, and they will chase whatever the most interesting story is. But they rarely actually finish those stories. They just milk it until something better comes along, and the general public just assumes whatever the issue was probably resolved itself since no one is talking about it anymore, but most of the time it's just because it's not as profitable to talk about them anymore. This is basically what we're seeing again with this. Everyone wants to know what is up with the wall, they're looking up statistics and arguing back and forth, "Is the wall useful? Is it not? Should we fund it? Is Trump breaking a promise by not building it?" when all of these questions don't actually mean jack shit when the fact is that TRUMP IS UNDER INVESTIGATION and suddenly no one gives a shit anymore because The Wall is 'The Most Important Thing' of the month. People seem to think that if a bad thing happens the news will report on it, but that's not the case. The news only follow the biggest and most trending stories, and thousands and thousands of smaller atrocities go on daily, completely unnoticed, and the average American is content in thinking they are 'well informed'.
This post was edited by its author on .

a lost pony !piNKiEPie. (ID: 4a5ed6)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  221210

File: 1547714179150.jpg (6.81 KB, 236x185, c1625a51c4c45d4b0f21a3ba8c046f…)

>>221203
Without reading closely you do have one major inaccuracy: the invasion force had a huge number of mobilized national guardsmen who signed on to secure their home States but were instead shipped off to Iraq.

True cause of Iraq war wasnt just distraction. It was also to stop Hussein pumping more gas to prevent Opec from raising the price Texas could sell oil for.

Similarly,
>>221190
The wall shutdown is not just to distract from the fact that Mueller has all but got him on conspiring with Putin (for what we almost know but not quite)
Trump's Showdown documentary - full
(Two hours long but worth watching)

But originally to pocket the cash cuz its his own contractors who are gonna build the wall.

It's all bread and circuses. Follow the money.
This post was edited by its author on .

Anonymous (ID: 4c21a3)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  221240

>>221203
It's sad that Pelosi and Schumer are going along with this.

>>221190
So what is a good solution? Should the government be more strict in rejecting visa applications from high-risk countries?

(ID: 89de54)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  221303

File: 1547756430076.png (792.39 KB, 1046x768, 43543665767.png)

>how will the government shut down end?
me: i hope it doesnt

a lost pony !piNKiEPie. (ID: a0ad5c)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  221417

>>221303
ah-HA

open borders supporter, I knew it.

(ID: 89de54)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  221419

File: 1547772823102.png (347.73 KB, 513x758, 98098879789.png)

>>221417
how in the hell did you get that out of post wanting less government?

Mk17 (ID: e96215)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  221430

File: 1547773539637.png (289.14 KB, 521x498, 15846545454.PNG)

>>221419
who do you think enforces the border?

how ironic would it be if ICE was part of the government shutdown? haha.

(ID: 89de54)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  221432

File: 1547773620361.png (319.09 KB, 427x651, 65765876867.png)

>>221430
wanting less government =/= to none at all

Mk17 (ID: e96215)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  221437

File: 1547774214595.png (289.79 KB, 626x572, 7894654.PNG)

>>220753
Sorry this took so long to respond to.

>Okay so, as far as deportations go, my main reform would be to require ICE to issue warrants.

Thats reasonable, in cases where they go after someone specifically.
I think if the person is caught red handed, or admits to being an illegal while in custody for another crime, the warrant shouldn't be necessary, just as it is not necessary to witness a bank robbery, or have someone turn themselves in, and have to run to a judge to get a warrant to arrest the person.

>>instead of building a wall, build more legal points of entry (which of course, means more personnel, and therefore more ability to stop people trying to cross illegally, but also more opportunities to enter legally)

There is already a check point at every road crossing the border. What are you suggesting? In the desert? If people were coming here legally they will go to the existing one, if they are coming here illegally they will avoid the new ones. That seems like just a way to spend money with no result, but maybe if you explain further ill understand better.

>>6 month amnesty period when an otherwise law-abiding person is discovered to be in the country illegally (if non-criminal), giving them time to go through proper channels for legal residency, or to self-deport, after which they become deportable

Would you assure any way to keep track of those people? If not, what is the point of paying the salary of the agents in charge of the case in the first place? What would the punishment be for breaking the probation?

>>violent criminals void the 6 month amnesty and are deported immediately (with a proper warrant of course)

What happens in the meantime while the warrant is being issued? If they are already in custody, what is the warrant for?

>>221432
I know, I'm just pointing out where i think >>221417 was coming from.
This post was edited by its author on .

!ScyphTlOY6 (ID: 395cd7)Country code: ponychan.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  221440

>>221419
Aw come on it's the only funny thing he's said in months. Let him have this. :P

(ID: 89de54)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  221441

File: 1547774342253.png (547.57 KB, 642x740, 876867987090.png)

>>221437
fair enough

>>221440
fiiiiiine


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