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File: 1544056709478.png (383.85 KB, 572x563, IMG_20181204_060036.jpg)

Starshine!Laura/wmXM (ID: 89195e)Country code: ponychan.png, country type: customflag, valid:   207126

http://www.annfammed.org/content/16/6/555.long

>14% of surveyed doctors said they were unwilling to provide routine medical care for trans patients

>willingness to provide care likely overreported because unwilling doctors more likely to decline to respond
Small sample size, but still, what the fuck? Nice medical ethics, fellas.

  (ID: bb9ee0)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  207127

File: 1544056843207.png (593.15 KB, 1025x767, Eyebrows174.png)

Do no harm.

Doesn't mean they have to do anything.

!ScyphTlOY6 (ID: bd663c)Country code: ponychan.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  207128

>>207126
things people should do != things people do

Starshine!Laura/wmXM (ID: 89195e)Country code: ponychan.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  207130

File: 1544057919694.jpg (26.88 KB, 370x320, IMG_20181204_160748.jpg)

>>207127
>I can't perform a basic physical because it offends my sensibilities that my patient has breasts and a penis or a beard and a vagina
>this is acceptable
"I will apply, for the benefit of the sick, all measures [that] are required, avoiding those twin traps of overtreatment and therapeutic nihilism. I will remember that there is art to medicine as well as science, and that warmth, sympathy, and understanding may outweigh the surgeon's knife or the chemist's drug...I will prevent disease whenever I can, for prevention is preferable to cure. I will remember that I remain a member of society, with special obligations to all my fellow human beings, those sound of mind and body as well as the infirm."

  (ID: bb9ee0)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  207132

File: 1544058175356.png (593.15 KB, 1025x767, Eyebrows174.png)

>>207130
I don't see there being a problem in choosing who to cater too.

If you're willing to face the consequences of people getting pissed off and that outrage affecting how much money you get in the long run, then more power to them.

Basically: "If I do not violate this oath, may I enjoy life and art, respected while I live and remembered with affection thereafter."

Guess who isn't going to be respected or remembered fondly.
This post was edited by its author on .

Whelp!tEfVeritas (ID: 02ff56)Country code: goggles.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  207137

File: 1544059566371.png (219.55 KB, 600x1080, tumblr_oh0kgr8TxK1u9ghu7o1_128…)

>>207130

"I will apply, for the benefit of the sick [...] traps [...]"

Well, there we have it.

Starshine!Laura/wmXM (ID: 89195e)Country code: ponychan.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  207138

File: 1544059823986.jpg (59.5 KB, 414x519, IMG_20181014_224130.jpg)

>>207132
Will anyone ever know or care? You rarely hear about this stuff as anything but statistics. I'd wager it's an out of sight, out of mind issue for most people not directly affected by it. And those are the kinds of issues people get mad when you complain about. Fuck those oversensitive entitled trannies, how dare they complain about being denied basic medical care! It's not something us normal people have to worry about, so it doesn't matter!

  (ID: bb9ee0)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  207139

File: 1544059852452.png (262.88 KB, 589x728, Eyebrows175.png)

Starshine!Laura/wmXM (ID: 89195e)Country code: ponychan.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  207140

File: 1544060163581.jpg (198.75 KB, 2048x1445, IMG_20181204_060006.jpg)

>>207139
Not that I'm accusing you specifically of that mindset. But it's kind of a recurring theme in modern political discourse. People don't like when issues that have no bearing on them are complained about. Oftentimes to the point of contortion and mental gymnastics to frame the issue as "demanding special treatment".

(ID: 4b518e)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  207141

File: 1544060248651.png (357.24 KB, 554x629, 9879789879879.png)

thats a pretty small number but it isnt non-existent

so i see the concern you have

what do you propose should be done about this?

  (ID: bb9ee0)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  207142

File: 1544060255135.png (262.88 KB, 589x728, Eyebrows175.png)

>>207140
Alright.

Anonymous (ID: e6f148)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  207146

For the record, this shit is the one thing that's pushed me to believe Trump's now a failure and not the hero we need.

(ID: 4b518e)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  207150

File: 1544061407122.png (709.32 KB, 1002x768, 654654768786798.png)

>>207146
im sorry, but if you expected trump to be a hero you were played from the start

  (ID: bb9ee0)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  207155

File: 1544061900778.png (262.88 KB, 589x728, Eyebrows175.png)

>>207150
It's a joke.

(ID: 4b518e)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  207156

File: 1544062095222.png (526.28 KB, 787x703, 4343243266546.png)

Starshine!Laura/wmXM (ID: 569ba7)Country code: lunachan.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  207158

File: 1544062186298.jpg (145.59 KB, 800x969, 1501562915991.jpg)

>>207141
Extending the existing Civil Rights Act protections seems to me like the most obvious solution. But if anyone's got a better (and actually politically viable, not some wishful thinking that will never actually be implemented) solution, I'm all ears.

I'm especially curious how the "antidiscrimination laws are inherently bad because they violate freedom of association" camp would propose to resolve issues like these, other than sitting back and hoping society fixes itself eventually.

(ID: 4b518e)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  207162

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>>207158
>Extending the existing Civil Rights Act protections seems to me like the most obvious solution.
im fine with that

>other than sitting back and hoping society fixes itself eventually.

...i mean, in a way it does

there maybe anti-discrimination laws but i dont believe thats what changed the game

people just sort of began to see things differently overtime

it was pretty damn rare to even see a gay couple on tv 20 years ago

Starshine!Laura/wmXM (ID: 569ba7)Country code: lunachan.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  207168

File: 1544063316166.png (1.17 MB, 1000x1414, 1500385509487.png)

>>207162
Laws alone can't fix a society. But they certainly help. If segregation was never made illegal, don't you think it would still be commonplace in some regions?

Are you familiar with the concept of the defensive stance within the context of social responsibility? There are four stances: obstructive, defensive, accommodating, and proactive. Essentially, the defensive stance describes an organization acting exactly within the bounds of the law. Such as, for instance, an employer who will hire qualified black people because he isn't legally allowed to discriminate, but may refuse to hire LGBT people regardless of qualifications, because the law doesn't explicitly prohibit that.

(ID: 4b518e)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  207175

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>>207168
>If segregation was never made illegal, don't you think it would still be commonplace in some regions?
honestly, maybe not

overtime it would have been something everyone eventually would have gotten tired of

also segregation still exists to this day to some capacity

>qualified black people because he isn't legally allowed to discriminate, but may refuse to hire LGBT people regardless of qualifications, because the law doesn't explicitly prohibit that

what if that person doesn't wanna hire you for other reasons?

Starshine!Laura/wmXM (ID: 89195e)Country code: ponychan.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  207180

>>207175
Everyone? Are you sure?

>what if that person doesn't wanna hire you for other reasons?

If I'm:
- not qualified for the position
- a safety hazard
- obnoxious and unprofessional
- abusive toward coworkers and clients
- known to leak company secrets to competitors or otherwise abuse my position to undermine the workplace for personal gain
Those are all perfectly legitimate reasons.

(ID: 4b518e)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  207182

File: 1544065012374.png (375.22 KB, 610x685, 787876896767864656547.png)

>>207180
they easily say you're not qualified for the position or just not even call you back

they dont have to state it's because you're trans

in fact if it was law they really wouldnt
This post was edited by its author on .

Mk17 (ID: 53981b)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  207185

File: 1544066866010.png (581.65 KB, 1047x921, 1532462857522.png)

>>207126
14% of people being total assholes seems like a pretty low spread to me, so honestly not bad.

Also, 4 years is a long time, and things might have changed since then as transgender issues have been more mainstream lately.

But yeah, sucks any Dr would just ignore their Hippocratic Oath, I swear EMTs and ER Drs are the only ones that take that seriously, privet practitioners are terrible at that kind of stuff.

Starshine!Laura/wmXM (ID: 569ba7)Country code: lunachan.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  207190

File: 1544068904974.png (12.77 KB, 128x256, Th03Ruukoto.png)

>>207182
Yes, but sometimes the fact that they're bullshitting is blatant enough that you can prove it in court.

>>207185
Well, it does say that clinicians who would say "yes" were more likely to respond, and the actual number of surveys they sent out was 308, so it's possible that willingness was overreported. But even assuming that the ones who didn't respond were just lazy and didn't want a $30 gift card...it should really be 0%, or at the very least not in the double digits. Personal prejudice has no place in medicine.

!XSAILBoatg (ID: f4a40d)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  207191

>>207126
>Survey measures included demographics; clinical and personal exposure to transgender individuals; an item assessing empathy (“It is necessary for a health care practitioner to be able to comprehend someone else’s experiences”)5 and an 8-item transphobia scale (adapted from an existing scale).6 For questions related to empathy and transphobia, respondents selected from a 7-point scale (1 = strongly disagree; 7 = strongly agree).
arbitrary definition of transphobia, garbage study.

>We created 4 questions assessing barriers to providing care to transgender patients. Barriers included a lack of familiarity with transition care guidelines, lack of training in transgender-specific care, lack of exposure to transgender patients, and lack of knowledge about transgender patients among office staff, medical assistants, and/or nursing staff. Another item measured perceptions of being capable of providing routine care to transgender patients. Outcomes included willingness to provide routine care to transgender patients (“I am willing to provide routine medical care to male-to-female/female-to-male transgender patients”) and Pap tests to transgender men (“I am willing to perform Pap smears for female-to-male patients”). Questions related to barriers, facilitators, and willingness were measured on a 7-point scale (1 = strongly disagree; 7 = strongly agree) and dichotomized for analysis.



>Variables associated (P <.05) with at least 1 outcome were

>age,
makes perfect sense
>continent of origin,
not surprising
>specialty,
makes perfect sense
>having ever met a transgender person,
makes perfect sense
>having cared for a transgender patient in the past 5 years,
makes perfect sense
>empathy,
not surprising
>transphobia,
garbage definition
>each of the 4 barriers,
makes perfect sense
>and feeling capable of providing routine care [to transgender patients]
makes more sense than literally every other thing they suggest
and HOLY SHIT look at those p-values

Virtually the entire study can be summed up with:
doctors who haven't had training in dealing with transgender patients don't want to deal with transgender patients

That makes sense, since, you know, people don't like being sued for malpractice.
Go down the street to find one of the 86% of doctors who is willing to treat them.

(ID: 4b518e)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  207193

File: 1544069399833.png (409.38 KB, 579x682, 7768798987.png)

>>207190
can you really prove that in court though?

if the employer simply didnt call you back after an interview that could mean a million different things

proving that it is simply discrimination is very hard to do beyond a reasonable doubt

they would have to explicitly tell you it's because you're trans

idk to me requiring laws for people to serve and hire is like sending your burger back because they got the order wrong

they could poop in it
This post was edited by its author on .

Mk17 (ID: 53981b)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  207194

File: 1544069945567.png (276.58 KB, 567x606, 65445132312.PNG)

>>207190
>Personal prejudice has no place in medicine.
This was drilled into my head so hard in school, so yeah, I 100% agree.

Like i said, if there is one take away i got from working in medicine, its that a lot of personal doctors are just in it for the money.

Best piece of advice i ever got from a Dr was, if you see pens for a drug in the office waiting room, then you are prescribed that drug during your visit, its because the Dr is late on a boat payment and you should seek a 2nd opinion haha.

!XSAILBoatg (ID: f4a40d)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  207195

>>207194
>its because the Dr is late on a boat payment
I always get paid.

Mk17 (ID: 53981b)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  207196

File: 1544070062553.png (207.32 KB, 396x497, 6654886.PNG)

>>207195
Well, your services are appreciated.

!XSAILBoatg (ID: f4a40d)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  207197

>>207196 satisfaction guaranteed

Mk17 (ID: 53981b)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  207198

File: 1544070223323.png (627.17 KB, 1073x1080, Screenshot_2018-08-06-18-57-11…)

>>207193
>they could poop in it
Of all the things they could do to your burger, i feel like this would be the most noticeable, and for that reason, my preference haha.

(ID: 4b518e)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  207200

File: 1544070288408.png (343.03 KB, 471x651, 7576765777.png)

>>207198
lol i was just making a point

Starshine!Laura/wmXM (ID: 569ba7)Country code: lunachan.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  207202

File: 1544070560035.jpg (44.34 KB, 600x600, 130048e313085ccd2e1b42a1a742b7…)

>>207191
>doctors who haven't had training in dealing with transgender patients don't want to deal with transgender patients
I'm pretty sure you don't need specialized training to take a trans person's heart rate, blood pressure, lung capacity, respiration rate, weight...y'know, the basic stuff that a routine physical entails. If you need transition-specific stuff you go to an endocrinologist, not a general practitioner.

>>207193
I mean, evidently you can, since discrimination lawsuits do happen.

Also I never care what's on my burger. I'll pull up to In N Out and they're like "onions or no onions" and I'm like "I haven't eaten in 14 hours, I don't care lol". Unless I get like, the completely wrong order.

>>207194
It's a shame that integrity isn't a prerequisite for important jobs like these.

(ID: 4b518e)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  207203

File: 1544070852558.png (125.88 KB, 273x473, 9898987944.png)

>>207202
just because they happen doesnt mean they always win

>Also I never care what's on my burger. I'll pull up to In N Out and they're like "onions or no onions" and I'm like "I haven't eaten in 14 hours, I don't care lol". Unless I get like, the completely wrong order.

same thats smart way to do it

my point is if you're hired to a place that completely HATES you be prepared to be treated like pure shit

whereas you could just choose a LGBT friendly place which do exist

Mk17 (ID: 53981b)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  207204

File: 1544070871295.png (899.73 KB, 1749x1440, 1532998598733-1.png)

>>207200
LMAO i would DIE from laughing if i sent my burger back and got poop on a bun in return hahaha.

I wouldn't even be mad, idk if iv experienced the emotion id have tbh haha.

Really depends on how smug a look the cook has when i look at him haha. Like if he is just dead eyeing me, asserting dominance, i would lose it!

>>207202
>It's a shame that integrity isn't a prerequisite for important jobs like these.
Yeah, heres a good one, what do you call the person who graduated with the lowest GPA in their medical school?
... Doctor.

(ID: 4b518e)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  207205

File: 1544071133080.png (416.32 KB, 838x727, 09089090677.png)

>>207204
i honestly would too

Starshine!Laura/wmXM (ID: 569ba7)Country code: lunachan.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  207210

File: 1544071799951.png (226.65 KB, 430x471, 1429367144748.png)

>>207203
If I can find a nice workplace, you bet I'd rather work there than the one staffed entirely by people whose every interaction with me has a backdrop of "repent, sinner". But I don't think that option always exists for everybody, and I don't trust society to correct itself in that regard. Some people have a hard enough time finding a job even without any discrimination issues to worry about.

And when it comes to medical care, you shouldn't be a doctor if you're not prepared to do your job, whether your patient is trans, gay, straight, black, a fucking white male!!1!1, Muslim, liberal, conservative, communist, nazi, otherkin. You're a doctor and you took an oath, none of that should matter.

>>207204
lmao

Mythix!wG1CV58ydQ (ID: c5b779)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  207212

This says alot about our society.

(ID: 4b518e)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  207213

File: 1544072177014.png (125.45 KB, 232x388, 566456765867.png)

>>207210
>and I don't trust society to correct itself in that regard
well in this case i gotta disagree

because society changes in many ways with our without a monolithic government

>And when it comes to medical care, you shouldn't be a doctor if you're not prepared to do your job, whether your patient is trans, gay, straight, black, a fucking white male!!1!1, Muslim, liberal, conservative, communist, nazi, otherkin. You're a doctor and you took an oath, none of that should matter.

were in agreement there

J (ID: e6f148)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  207214

File: 1544072239969.png (800.66 KB, 791x893, tahtorak.png)

If you're really going to argue a doctor has the right to refuse a service you have the insurance to pay for, then we should also be stripping away the need for doctor certifications so doctors are no longer a monopolizing overpaid class just because they had to jack off at costly med schools. See how long these jokers last when their product is devalued because anyone can offer it.

!XSAILBoatg (ID: f4a40d)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  207215

>>207210
>and when it comes to medical care, you shouldn't be a doctor if you're not prepared to do your job
transgender hasn't even been a thing long enough for norms to have been established when it comes to general care. expecting general practitioners to perform according to best guesses, when best guesses can result in malpractice lawsuits, is nonsensical. you don't go to a pediatrician expecting to be treated as an adult, because they don't specialize in adults. you shouldn't expect someone who hasn't specifically been trained to deal with transgender individuals to deal with transgender individuals.

Anonymous (ID: e61456)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  207218

>>207126
Does it ask why they are unwilling? Might some be unwilling simply because they feel unqualified to provide the service?

Mk17 (ID: 53981b)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  207219

File: 1544072648099.png (151.78 KB, 349x423, 98754312312.PNG)

>>207210
I would assume, that if you went through reassignment, that the Dr who helped you with that would have some good recommendations.

Honestly though, I've started just going to walk in clinics instead of having a dedicated Dr.
I couldn't find one that was any good at all, and its harder when you have some knowledge of the subject.

I find that a good walk in clinic is more affordable, more likely to give you personal care, and generally a better experience.

!XSAILBoatg (ID: f4a40d)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  207220

Mk17 (ID: 53981b)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  207221

File: 1544072766568.png (218.54 KB, 462x582, 6656565564.PNG)

>>207218
This is a good point, it might not all be Transphobia.

Thats actually a really good point.

I owe you a dollar.

!XSAILBoatg (ID: f4a40d)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  207222

(ID: 4b518e)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  207223

File: 1544072914182.png (606.53 KB, 873x768, 897800980.png)

>>207218
another good point tbh

Mk17 (ID: 53981b)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  207224

File: 1544072920606.png (242.3 KB, 478x441, 565688884145.PNG)

>>207222
Alright, you got to the party first, and put in some work.

I owe you 2 dollars.

!XSAILBoatg (ID: f4a40d)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  207227

>>207218
>>207224
Also note that "transphobia" was rated on a 7-point scale.
The mean value for trans-accepting doctors was 3.0 and 3.1.
The mean for non-accepting doctors was 3.8.

The implication of this study, linking it to "transphobia" (again, garbage definition), is that on a scale of "strongly disagree/disagree/slightly disagree/neutral/slightly agree/agree/strongly agree" with their arbitrary version of trans acceptance:
"slightly agree" = not at all transphobic.
"agree a tiny bit more than neutral" = OH MY GOD TRANSPHOBE!!!!!

Starshine!Laura/wmXM (ID: 569ba7)Country code: lunachan.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  207229

File: 1544073432467.png (1004.96 KB, 1024x1446, 3408b67aa011fcaf95cd4431ad8223…)

>>207213
>because society changes in many ways with our without a monolithic government
Yes, but it's not always enough. Nor fast enough. You can't expect people to wait 20 years for society to become more accepting when they're unemployable now and will have starved to death (or died of exposure after getting kicked out of 3 homeless shelters in a row) by the time society realizes they are, in fact, human beings with the same basic needs as everyone else.

>>207215
What's going to result in a malpractice lawsuit exactly? If you're going to prescribe a medication, you always ask what other medications the patient is taking to make sure there aren't any dangerous interactions. That's standard. If your patient has breasts, you screen for breast cancer. Standard. If your patient has a prostate and is above the threshold age, you screen for prostate cancer. Standard. If your patient has a sore throat, you check for strep. Standard. Practically nothing encompassed by "routine care" is any more likely to result in malpractice for a trans person than for anyone else, unless you're a quack who shouldn't be treating anyone to begin with.

!XSAILBoatg (ID: f4a40d)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  207230

>>207229 You have to know what normal looks like to identify and treat abnormal.
Transgender is an entire spectrum of abnormal by definition, so being able to identify the true problems is an issue. If you miss a problem because you think it's not unusual, lawsuit. If you identify a problem that is normal for transgender individuals in that particular state of transgender, lawsuit.

(ID: 4b518e)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  207231

File: 1544073746345.png (435.31 KB, 642x630, 665665465378.png)

>>207229
1.) it doesnt have to take 20 years

it could take less

2.) as i said they dont have to outright say they dont want to hire you because you're transgender

they say any other reason

3.) homeless shelters arent created by government. they're created by people who want to help. they could deny for lots of other reasons too

Anonymous (ID: e61456)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  207232

>>207126
>“I am willing to provide routine medical care to male-to-female/female-to-male transgender patients”
Does this mean routine care for the condition of being transgender or just routine care in general unrelated to transgenderness?

Mk17 (ID: 53981b)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  207234

File: 1544074154343.png (218.38 KB, 424x437, wsmwsm.PNG)

>>207229
>Nor fast enough. You can't expect people to wait 20 years for society to become more accepting when they're unemployable now

Idk, maybe my perspective is warped because I've worked with transgender people since my first job, but I haven't heard of a lot of discrimination, at least not from friends, maybe in the news.

My first job was in 2004 and I worked with a girl mid transformation, and no one really thought anything of it tbh. Again, this is my personal experience, but in 2004 it def wasnt so much of a thing as it is today that i recall.

I know it can happen, but assuming you will be unemployed and starve to death in the streets is a bit of a stretch. In fact, i would say society itself is normally ahead of the curve on these things, since government tends not to react unless they think it will make them popular.

Starshine!Laura/wmXM (ID: 89195e)Country code: ponychan.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  207237

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>>207230
I'm having a hard time envisioning a scenario where that would be an issue. No doctor is qualified to treat every malady under the sun, so when something comes up that you don't know, you get them a referral for a different doctor. I've gotten a referral for a different psychiatrist, because the one I was seeing at the time wasn't trained in gender dysphoria. That was fine, it was professional, no complaints. The issue here is doctors being unwilling to treat trans patients at all, even for very basic and mundane things.

>>207231
It very well can take 20 years. Plenty of people even now are against gay marriage or wouldn't want to hire a gay person.

>>207232
In general.

>>207234
My view is probably a bit warped as well, because I've spent a lot of time arguing with very unsavory people with a very unsavory view of trans people, and grew up in an environment where the idea of a trans person was like...a caricature, a sideshow freak. I don't think I will personally ever be in that situation, but I can very easily see it happening to people who don't have the opportunities and privilege I have. And statistics on how many trans people experience discrimination and mistreatment in the workplace, in medical care, in schools, in day to day life, don't really paint a pretty picture. I don't think we're at the point yet where most people think nothing of it, and there is a nasty contingent of people who are absolutely hellbent on keeping it that way.

(ID: 4b518e)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  207240

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>>207237
people wouldnt know unless you told them

if you dont believe times havent changed

look up Christine Hallquist
This post was edited by its author on .

!XSAILBoatg (ID: f4a40d)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  207241

>>207237 Do you consider a blood test to be a basic, mundane thing? There are thresholds for what is considered normal for people under given circumstances. When you start throwing in hormone replacement, etc., etc., those norms can go out the window. So is it unreasonable for a doctor who performs this basic, mundane thing to refer you to someone else, who is more familiar with the norms as it relates to transgender individuals?

Mk17 (ID: 53981b)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  207243

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>>207237
This country is huge, and there are some pretty big swings culturally about these kinds of things, so when you lump it all together into statistics, it can paint a picture that may not be true.

Like if the bible belt is very transphobic, thats not really representative of the nation, and can throw stuff like that off. It why i try to also keep my personal experiences in mind when reading this kind of stuff.
Though, im on the outside of the situation for the most part.

Honestly, i wish everyone who was pro rights would move to New England and vote so we could all have trans rights and AR15s haha.

FUN FACT! when we first opened the first public indoor firing range in my state, our first members were a trans couple and a lesbian couple haha.

Starshine!Laura/wmXM (ID: 89195e)Country code: ponychan.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  207253

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>>207240
I know about Christine Hallquist. My old hometown in Alaska also just elected not one, but two transwomen for the city council and borough assembly. But not all regions are as liberal as Vermont or as true-libertarian as Alaska. Christine Hallquist probably wouldn't have stood a chance in like, Georgia.

It was actually really refreshing and surpising to hear about Alaska's elections, though. I never would have seen that coming growing up there. I don't know if it shows that times have changed or if it shows that the zeitgeist of your elementary, middle, and high school is not a microcosm of the zeitgeist of your town, but I welcome it. Lisa Murkowski is absolutely based and redpilled too, although I imagine some think she's a RINO.

>>207241
Blood tests are probably kind of a gray area. It really depends what's being tested for. If you're testing for blood-borne illnesses, well, HIV is still HIV regardless of whether or not Alice has been taking her pills. If you're checking for estrogen or testosterone levels, I'd consider that trans-specific. Either way, I don't think that's unreasonable. That's the kind of thing where there's no shame in saying "I don't know" and referring them to a different doctor. That said, even in this scenario the actual act of taking a blood test is gonna be the same, you draw blood and send it to the lab. Only when interpreting the results do qualifications matter, and if something is really amiss in a blood test you usually end up getting a second opinion or going to more specialized care anyway. If you don't know what a healthy transwoman's blood composition looks like, you can for sure tell her that and suggest she find someone more qualified.

>>207243
The regional variation is a big part of why I'm so adamant on trans antidiscrimination law going federal. Someone who's born in a shitty area should at least have a level playing field in the job market so they can fuck off to a place that doesn't suck dick (uh, metaphorically speaking).

tbh, you strike me as someone who'd really like Alaska.

(ID: 4b518e)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  207257

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>>207253
starshine i am just trying to tell you things change without government enforcement

Starshine!Laura/wmXM (ID: 89195e)Country code: ponychan.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  207263

File: 1544078368469.jpg (173.64 KB, 1233x1992, IMG_20181204_075712.jpg)

>voted yes for constitutional ban on flag burning
Yikes!
>voted no for greenhouse gas regulations
Okay, maybe not absolutely based and redpilled. OnTheIssues is pretty out of date though, they think she's anti-LGBT but she was super against Anchorage trying to pass a bathroom bill and is very much for anti-discrimination policies.

>>207257
I'm not saying they can't. The most important changes are always on a cultural level, not a legal one. But sometimes a legal shift is what it takes to stimulate a cultural shift. The South wasn't going to abolish slavery on its own.

(ID: 4b518e)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  207264

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>>207263
actually the south was.... they made plans to long ago

Starshine!Laura/wmXM (ID: 89195e)Country code: ponychan.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  207268

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>>207264
But...they literally seceded over it. It's in the Confederate Constitution.
>"No bill of attainder, ex post facto law, or law denying or impairing the right of property in negro slaves shall be passed."

(ID: 4b518e)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  207270

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>>207268
how well would that work today?

also thats a LAW
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Mk17 (ID: 53981b)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  207272

File: 1544079626014.png (289.79 KB, 626x572, 7894654.PNG)

>>207253
>The regional variation is a big part of why I'm so adamant on trans antidiscrimination law going federal. Someone who's born in a shitty area should at least have a level playing field in the job market so they can fuck off to a place that doesn't suck dick (uh, metaphorically speaking).
Thats a fair point, but i dont think making regulations to cover a minority situation (minority in the case of amount of times its an issue, not the people involved) is really the right way to go. I think its up to the people in that situation to, and this might sound harsh, dont flaunt themselves so much, to start to change the minds of the people.
An example of that is, my friend moved in with me from Ohio, he was gay. My dad, and an older friend of mine were super homophobic, but loved this guy, because he didnt introduce himself with "hey, nice to meet you, i love it in the ass"... he was just a normal person, and when it finally got brought up he was gay, instead of them hating someone that they became best friends with, they actually thought "huh, maybe i was wrong..."

I know its different for trans folks, because there are physical tells, but still, I think it is still up to you to carve out your own place in society rather than have government force people to be tolerant of you, because artificial tolerance can breed resentment and actually make the situation worse. Its the long haul method i know, but it will be much more effective in the long term.
Like mikie pointed out, if a job is FORCED to hire you, do you think that work environment is really going to be any good?

This is why i dont advocate "minority" rights, but rather, human rights.

>tbh, you strike me as someone who'd really like Alaska.

I probably would, but all my stuff is here in New England, so I'd rather get to the work of making where im at, more like alaska, because if i dont, and i run, then pretty soon there will be no where to run to.

!XSAILBoatg (ID: f4a40d)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  207273

>>207270 I found a comment on a Steven Crowder video from 8 months ago, responding to a random comment by Hypno-Thorax, by a user called "Mikie" saying "Starlight Glimmer is best pony." Was that you?

Starshine!Laura/wmXM (ID: 89195e)Country code: ponychan.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  207276

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>"The Confederate States may acquire new territory; and Congress shall have power to legislate and provide governments for the inhabitants of all territory belonging to the Confederate States...In all such territory the institution of negro slavery, as it now exists in the Confederate States, shall be recognized and protected by Congress and by the Territorial government; and the inhabitants of the several Confederate States and Territories shall have the right to take to such Territory any slaves lawfully held by them in any of the States or Territories of the Confederate States."
Many things, perhaps most, should be left up to the states. But whether it is or isn't okay to own a human being isn't one of them.

>>207270
If the Confederacy had won the war? Who knows. I doubt they'd still have slavery to this day simply because Real America would still be an important trade partner and would have fucked their shit up with sanctions somewhere down the line. But they wanted to expand their territory, so maybe they would have gotten bigger than the Union in the end, or even consumed it. Then most of the country would be pro-slavery and abolitionists would be seen as prissy soyboys.

!XSAILBoatg (ID: f4a40d)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  207279

File: 1544080397721.png (34.13 KB, 502x525, Untitled.png)

Starshine!Laura/wmXM (ID: 89195e)Country code: ponychan.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  207283

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>>207272
Yeah, you've told me about your gay friend. Being a decent human being is definitely the best way to get people to treat you like one. But, as you said, it's a lot harder to conceal being trans than being gay. Some people won't even give you a chance, especially in an area where it's really an ingrained norm that people like you shouldn't be given a chance.

If I got rejected or fired from a job for being trans, I'd probably call them chucklefucks and move on, unless I was feeling especially vindictive. But that's a luxury not everyone can afford. Many trans people are in perpetual dire straits. Some get disowned by their parents and kicked out of the house over it. The long haul method can't save them. They often end up forced to prostitute themselves instead, and sometimes end up being beaten to death by a client who suddenly regrets that he fucked a chick with a dick. It's not about me and whether or not anti-discrimination laws will make a difference for me. It's about the people who legitimately won't survive the long haul method.

(ID: 4b518e)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  207284

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>>207276
how do you know that?

>>207273
>>207279
yes thats me...

HOW did you find that?

(ID: 4b518e)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  207285

File: 1544081543060.png (675.72 KB, 998x768, 9870909876.png)

i even used a different image but if you look at the image the implication is there

!XSAILBoatg (ID: f4a40d)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  207286

>>207284
>>207285
I recently started watching Steven Crowder, and I saw one of his videos in my recommendations feed. looked interesting enough, so I watched it. Afterwards, I wanted to see the comments if anyone had commented on a specific thing he said. and then I found a random comment by someone with a Thorax image/name. and so I looked to see the responses to that. and then there was someone named Mikie, ignoring the discussion and commenting on Starlight Glimmer! I was like - no way - but could it be!? haha

Starshine!Laura/wmXM (ID: 569ba7)Country code: lunachan.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  207287

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>>207284
I don't. I'm just speculating. But preserving the institution of slavery is why the Confederacy came into existence, so it doesn't seem like that inaccurate of a speculation for a scenario where they became more powerful than the Union.

(ID: 4b518e)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  207288

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>>207286
i have been premiered on videos too

You Made Me Cry... (Reading Mean Comments)

>>207287
but it can also change...

!XSAILBoatg (ID: f4a40d)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  207289

>>207288 hahaha nice

(ID: 4b518e)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  207290

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>>207289
gotta say your very good at finding me

!XSAILBoatg (ID: f4a40d)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  207291

>>207290 I got pretty lucky! especially since it was an old video, and I don't often check the comments. But what can I say, Starlight Glimmer really stood out to me!
>>207288 god who are these people... and why do they have 2 million subscribers?

(ID: 4b518e)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  207292

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>>207291
>god who are these people... and why do they have 2 million subscribers?
their content is shit

i was a fan of the dudes dad who passed away

his stuff was so entertaining

so i just stuck with it

angry grandpa

Mk17 (ID: 53981b)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  207293

File: 1544082750591.png (209.86 KB, 437x482, 308308.PNG)

>>207283
>Some people won't even give you a chance, especially in an area where it's really an ingrained norm that people like you shouldn't be given a chance.
I never said it would be easy, just better in the long run.
>If I got rejected or fired from a job for being trans, I'd probably call them chucklefucks and move on, unless I was feeling especially vindictive.
And you should! But you also shouldnt give in the the vindictive side ether.
Honestly, one thing I've noticed about the cases in the news where a trans person was fired for something, its normally not simply because they were trans. Like the girl at the funeral home, they just wanted her to adhere to a code of conduct while dealing with people in an emotional and stressful situation... i feel like she kind of took the situation too far, and she could have just worn pants, and it would have been a non-issue. But instead she made this big deal out of it, caused a big fuss, and even made me think it was going to far.
Im pretty pro-everything, but in that case, i really wish she had just worn pants, because i feel like she set trans rights back a step.
>Some get disowned by their parents and kicked out of the house over it. The long haul method can't save them.
Nether can legislation. They are casualties in a battle for rights, like the thousands of weed smokers sitting in jail. Its harsh to say, but thats the case, no law could have saved those folks from that situation, and life can suck.
>They often end up forced to prostitute themselves instead, and sometimes end up being beaten to death by a client who suddenly regrets that he fucked a chick with a dick.
Again, murder is already illegal, saying murdering a trans person is SUPER illegal, wont prevent the murder. Its sad, and wrong, and fucking sick, but its the fact of the matter, unfortunately.
No government imposed tolerance can prevent that situation.
> It's not about me and whether or not anti-discrimination laws will make a difference for me. It's about the people who legitimately won't survive the long haul method.
But, the long haul method is the only thing that could actually make a difference, and save the people in the situations you described. A law might prevent someone from being fired because they are trans, but being disowned or murdered, no law can prevent.

>>207273
>>207279
>>207284
HA!
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!XSAILBoatg (ID: f4a40d)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  207295

>>207292 mmmm, that's a shame
>>207293 I can stalk Mikie on YouTube, now!

time to head off; have a good one

Mk17 (ID: 53981b)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  207297

File: 1544082917996.png (247.39 KB, 403x450, drj675f.PNG)

>>207295
G'night ship!... err... boat!

Mk17 (ID: a15db9)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  207312

File: 1544086635883.png (529.13 KB, 987x945, Screenshot_2018-09-01-01-15-23…)

>>207283
I honestly dont want to come off as harsh.

I have so many transsexual friends, that i absolutely love and respect. Like some of my best, long haul, thick and thin friends.

I cant begin to put myself in the position, i know this, ill never know how it feels. But not just transgender, but ALL people, i think the long haul is the best.

In the mean time, i would stand beside anyone, and fight for rights, not just for their specific cause, but for all people.

I honestly feel like once we drop the labels, and just say "you cant discriminate against anyone for any reason, that isnt a criminal offense" we arnt fighting hard enough.

And even then, there are some "criminal offenses" i would fight to change too.

If you arnt hurting anyone, then you shouldn't have to worry.

But millions of weed smokers have shown, the long haul is the way, even though there are casualties, and injustices, if you want to affect real change you HAVE to change minds, not just laws.

I could be absolutely wrong though, and if i am, PLEASE dont hesitate to refute me.

Starshine!Laura/wmXM (ID: ae7498)Country code: ponychan.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  207314

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>>207293
>I never said it would be easy, just better in the long run
To be honest, part of me hopes that in the super long run, society will have advanced to the point where cultural morality is ingrained enough, technology is advanced enough, and resource usage is sustainable enough that we'll look back on the need for governments and laws in general as obsolete; something that primitive barbaric 21st century humans needed to keep themselves from destroying each other. But that's the realm of fantasy for the time being. The founding fathers knew that, if given the power to do so, tyrants would punish those who dare criticize them; that's why they created the First Amendment. The First Amendment is a law, just as the Civil Rights Act is a law, and it exists to protect those with less power from those with more power. Trump would probably love to lock up every single CNN reporter if he could, but he can't, and that's a good thing.

>the girl at the funeral home, they just wanted her to adhere to a code of conduct while dealing with people in an emotional and stressful situation

>but in that case, i really wish she had just worn pants, because i feel like she set trans rights back a step
Well...I don't know if I can agree with you on that. If she was a cis woman, they would have no problem with her dressing as she did. I know it's a bit hard to understand for someone whose clothing of choice lines up with what society expects people born of that sex to wear, but it'd be kind of like if your job required you to wear something "girly" all the time. And I'm not sure they would have stopped at only clothes; clothes were the line she drew, but if she gave in on that front they probably would have also said she can't wear makeup, has to keep her hair short, perhaps even has to introduce herself by her male name. Because after all, in their eyes it'd probably be rather weird for someone who looks like a man, and dresses like a man, to introduce themselves as Aimee. On the surface, their side of the story is simply that she wasn't adhering to the dress code, but the reason she's considered to be in violation of that dress code to begin with is because they don't see her as a woman; they see her as a man and want her to act the part. And when you're trans, acting the part is an existential nightmare. The fact that it's a funeral home complicates the situation and lends emotional weight to their side, but I don't think that it invalidates her indignation. I don't even know if any of their customers actually complained about her, or if it was just the directors themselves expecting everyone else to have a problem with her like they did.

>no law could have saved those folks from that situation

Well, if the law says you can't kick someone out of a homeless shelter for being trans (which is part of what extending the Civil Rights Act would do), that's one way it'd help their situation. And if you have a job and have been saving money from it, enough for even a few months' rent and groceries in a cheap studio apartment, getting kicked out from your parents' house is way less of a "damn, now I gotta suck dick just to survive" than it otherwise would be.

No law can prevent murder, but a law can surely improve the circumstances that lead people to a situation where they're at higher risk of being murdered. As for causing resentment, consider this: would you say that society has become more racist, or less racist, as a result of the Civil Rights Act? Some people surely doubled down on their bigotry out of spite when it was first passed, but in the long run, it seems to me like in most of the country, people of color have it much better now than they did in the 1950s, and white people are much less racist than they were in the 1950s.

I think the Civil Rights Act came about in part because of a shift in cultural attitude, but I also don't think it coming into existence hindered that shift from continuing to progress and become more embedded. If anything, it hindered the efforts of the racists to keep racism as an institution, and solidified in the mainstream the idea that discriminating against people for their skin color is not acceptable. And slavery might not still be around today, but it surely would have taken a lot longer to go away if it was never abolished. There are some things that you should let society fix on its own, for sure. I would never support, for instance, a pronoun law, because that would definitely be going too far. And I'm sure MLK would never have supported making it illegal to say "nigger". But he sure as fuck wanted it to be illegal to force blacks to the back of the bus, to deny them entry in restaurants and stores, to refuse them jobs for their race.

Starshine!Laura/wmXM (ID: ae7498)Country code: ponychan.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  207317

File: 1544087770243.jpg (26.88 KB, 370x320, IMG_20181204_160748.jpg)

It's also worth noting that no one's opposition to the Civil Rights Act was grounded in Enlightenment values like freedom of association. It was unabashedly and explicitly because they wanted to keep the black man down.

"We will resist to the bitter end any measure or any movement which would have a tendency to bring about social equality and intermingling and amalgamation of the races in our (Southern) states."
- Georgia Senator Richard Russell, leading a filibuster against the Civil Rights Act

>>207312
Well, in the case of weed it's kind of a fundamentally different situation. With weed, changing the law is quite literally the root of what they're fighting for.

Starshine!Laura/wmXM (ID: ae7498)Country code: ponychan.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  207319

File: 1544088908119.jpg (193.15 KB, 850x1149, 5474899.jpg)

>>207312
Also:
>"you cant discriminate against anyone for any reason, that isn't a criminal offense"
>even then, there are some "criminal offenses" i would fight to change too
Run for office. Please. The only reason I care in the slightest about the Equality Act is because I think a 60% measure is better than a half measure.

(Also I'd say include bona fide occupational qualification in there, because you shouldn't have to hire someone whose only experience is in teaching kindergarten as a brain surgeon, but in principle, that's what I think anti-discrimination law should be: discriminate solely on legitimate safety risk, and base employment solely on qualification.)

Starshine!Laura/wmXM (ID: ae7498)Country code: ponychan.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  207323

File: 1544101499421.jpg (77.79 KB, 656x704, _senko_sewayaki_kitsune_no_sen…)

Fuck it, if I ever actually manage the whole bootstraps thing and become a successful business owner, I'm going to make a point of hiring furries. Not only that, I'm going to encourage them to wear their fursuits to work. They'll be the only the most intelligent and qualified furries I can find from all around the world, it's going to be really tremendous. We are going to make corporate America great again.

No alt right or commie furs in main headquarters tho, they'll be directed to a division founded by my vice president. I'll also have a division womynned entirely by TERF furs. They'll hate my guts for being a filthy trans-identified male appropriating womynhood, but the competitive pay, benefits, and paid yiff breaks will be too good to pass up.

Anonymous (ID: a6395a)Country code: jsm.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  207325

File: 1544102254684.jpg (139.21 KB, 960x638, 178.jpg)

yeah, idk why since it's a pretty easy prescription of shock therapy every time

Mk17 (ID: a15db9)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  207349

File: 1544113592336.png (142.05 KB, 281x375, gd54.PNG)

>>207314
>part of me hopes that in the super long run, society will have advanced to the point where cultural morality is ingrained enough, technology is advanced enough, and resource usage is sustainable enough that we'll look back on the need for governments and laws in general as obsolete; something that primitive barbaric 21st century humans needed to keep themselves from destroying each other.
Thats a pretty romantic notion, but if thats the way it went, i would have no complaints at all haha.
>The First Amendment is a law, just as the Civil Rights Act is a law, and it exists to protect those with less power from those with more power.
I would argue that the first amendment is a reminder of an inalienable right, laws prescribe punishment. But i see what you are saying, because you could say that of civil rights, but the ACT is a law. Again, a constitutional amendment as short and sweet as No person shall be discriminated against for any legal choice, would be something i fully endorse.
>Trump would probably love to lock up every single CNN reporter if he could, but he can't, and that's a good thing.
HA! I agree its a good thing, but I dont think Trump would lock them up, as they are giving him exactly what he wants haha.
> If she was a cis woman, they would have no problem with her dressing as she did.
Right, but she wasn't.
>it'd be kind of like if your job required you to wear something "girly" all the time.
I would ether do what was asked of me, or quit.
>And I'm not sure they would have stopped at only clothes; clothes were the line she drew, but if she gave in on that front they probably would have also said she can't wear makeup, has to keep her hair short, perhaps even has to introduce herself by her male name.
But your not sure they wouldnt have ether, nether and I though. I would actually give them the makeup, and short hair, if they said that of any person working there. Thats the thing, if they required a standard for ALL the employees, it would have been a better way to go, that even female employees had to wear pants. I would for sure not back up the name thing, because thats dehumanizing, esp if its a legal name. I'm not saying the business didnt handle their end poorly too, but I think it would have been better if she had just started looking for another job, rather than picking that battle.
I know thats hard too. Its not a perfect paralell, but iv been looking for a job and iv had people tell me they wouldnt even consider me because i worked at a gun store. Thats discrimination, and its something i have to consider every time i send out a resume, that it might just be trashed based on that one thing, and i never had a chance in the first place. So while not a perfect example, i have an idea of what it feels like to think you wont even be given the opportunity to present yourself in the first place.
>And when you're trans, acting the part is an existential nightmare.
This is the part that i fully admit, i can never fully understand, but i think its also the part that can make judgment clouded and create a bias. Not saying that of you, but i could def see how having a personal steak in something can lead to a bias.
>The fact that it's a funeral home complicates the situation and lends emotional weight to their side, but I don't think that it invalidates her indignation.
I dont think it invalidates her indignation at all, i just think the more dignified route would be to put in her 2 weeks notice and move on. Again, like mikie said, what would it be like for her at that job if they were forced to keep her? It would have been hostile to say the least, and i dont think that would have been a better situation for her.
>Well, if the law says you can't kick someone out of a homeless shelter for being trans (which is part of what extending the Civil Rights Act would do), that's one way it'd help their situation.
I'll give you that, for sure.
> And if you have a job and have been saving money from it, enough for even a few months' rent and groceries in a cheap studio apartment, getting kicked out from your parents' house is way less of a "damn, now I gotta suck dick just to survive" than it otherwise would be.
But i feel like you have to work under the assumption that, atm, its impossible for trans people to find employment, which simply isnt true.
>would you say that society has become more racist, or less racist, as a result of the Civil Rights Act?
Its become less racist, but imho I think the civil rights act had little to do with it, i think it was trending that way to begin with, or LBJ, a huge racist, would have never signed it in the first place.
> it seems to me like in most of the country, people of color have it much better now than they did in the 1950s
I think they are protected more, you can call stuff like the civil rights act and affirmative action as being "better off" because they are legally entitled to special treatment, but is it better for their community? I would argue that they dont have it better off, because their community has fallen to shit, we have billboards around the city pleading with black people not to kill each other, idk if id call that better off.
They have become an "other" instead of just a person.
Italians and Catholics were just as discriminated against in my area when my grandfather came over, as were the irish, but the Italians and Irish didnt get special laws and stuff, but what they did do was work hard, make their community better, embrace and laugh at the hate speech, and in the long haul, have it WAY better than people of colour.
They didnt ask for special laws protecting them, they changed the culture itself to accept them.

Look at black culture of the 1950s vs today, and seriously tell me its better.

>>207317
>Well, in the case of weed it's kind of a fundamentally different situation. With weed, changing the law is quite literally the root of what they're fighting for.
I agree, but its a good correlation for how changing the minds of the people can have a hard impact. Marijuana users rights were way behind the 8 ball, and still have come out on top.
But it took a lot of hard work.
>Run for office. Please.
Still think that? haha.
>that's what I think anti-discrimination law should be: discriminate solely on legitimate safety risk, and base employment solely on qualification.
Ill back you up 100% on that.
And, im not AGAINST the civil rights act being extended to anyone, i just dont think its a "solution" to the problem, and see it as a really cheap band aid that, when it dosnt include everyone, can actually be its own form of social segregation.
I also think that was the point of it when LBJ signed it
>>207323
STARSHINE 2020!!
This post was edited by its author on .

Anonymous (ID: 315ba7)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  207352

File: 1544115188271.png (328.7 KB, 870x942, i'm the leader.png)

>>207323
This smug kitsune gives me strength.

!XSAILBoatg (ID: f4a40d)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  207353

File: 1544115284104.png (478.59 KB, 1024x1024, 576143.png)

>>207349
>I think they are protected more, you can call stuff like the civil rights act and affirmative action as being "better off" because they are legally entitled to special treatment, but is it better for their community? I would argue that they dont have it better off, because their community has fallen to shit, we have billboards around the city pleading with black people not to kill each other, idk if id call that better off.
>They have become an "other" instead of just a person.
>Italians and Catholics were just as discriminated against in my area when my grandfather came over, as were the irish, but the Italians and Irish didnt get special laws and stuff, but what they did do was work hard, make their community better, embrace and laugh at the hate speech, and in the long haul, have it WAY better than people of colour.
>They didnt ask for special laws protecting them, they changed the culture itself to accept them.
>
>Look at black culture of the 1950s vs today, and seriously tell me its better.
this

Starshine!Laura/wmXM (ID: ae7498)Country code: ponychan.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  207373

File: 1544119519180.jpg (150.87 KB, 1128x1200, IMG_20181204_082033.jpg)

>>207349
Looking at the past, I'm a ruthless cynic. Looking at the present, I'm a pragmatic idealist, which totally makes sense and isn't a contradiction. Looking at the future...well, there are a huge number of paths humanity can go down, and many of them are horrifying. So I stan the romantic one to keep myself sane. And idk, maybe plant some seeds to keep the idea alive so people with double my IQ can figure out how to make it actually happen.

>Right, but she wasn't

I'm not either. Mistakes were made, when I was a sperm I didn't realize I was carrying a Y chromosome. I'm not proud of my past, but I try to put it behind me. Must I suffer a lifelong laundry list of arbitrary expectations that only serve as punishment for a mistake I made before I was even a zygote?

(Hopefully not, because I'm transitioning in my 20s. But I don't think Aimee had that option. I mean, people did, but it was kind of on the downlow.)

>I would for sure not back up the name thing, because that's dehumanizing, esp if its a legal name

I'd argue that the way they enforce the dress code is too. But I'm also in the camp that thinks men, women, transmen, transwomen, enbies, and whoever else can and should wear whatever gendered clothing they like, as long as it's within a tasteful standard of decency that would apply no matter who's wearing it.

>I think it would have been better if she had just started looking for another job, rather than picking that battle

Realistically, that's probably what I would have done. And probably what most people do. But someone's gotta take a stand from time to time, otherwise nothing ever changes. Maybe this wasn't the right context to take that stand in, but she fought for what she believes in, and I can't fault that.

>iv had people tell me they wouldnt even consider me because i worked at a gun store

Yikes. I'm sorry you're in that situation.

>i think its also the part that can make judgment clouded and create a bias. Not saying that of you, but I could def see how having a personal steak in something can lead to a bias

I'll be the first to admit I have a bias in this regard. But I don't think it's unfair that I have that bias. Most people probably don't give a shit about being able to dress, look, and be accepted as a girl regardless of what's between their legs. Most people also don't give a shit about having a daily supply of insulin, but some people need that to live, and those people are absolutely entitled to be biased in favor of having that. It's not exactly the same thing, because nothing is exactly the same as being trans, nor is anything exactly the same as being diabetic, but I'm sure you can see my reasoning that people have a right to bias toward protecting their needs and interests.

>what would it be like for her at that job if they were forced to keep her?

Probably pretty bad. Did she have other options? Maybe, maybe not. Late transitioners have it the worst out of all trans people, unfortunately, so I can definitely understand being afraid in her position.

>i feel like you have to work under the assumption that, atm, its impossible for trans people to find employment, which simply isn't true

In many cases, it's probably not true. Maybe in most cases. But the idea that any such cases may exist disturbs me deeply, not just for trans people, but for anybody who's in that situation for something as fundamental as their identity. Life isn't fair, and it never will be, even in my romantic "good end" future. But I think making it a bit more fair in any way one can is the responsibility of any morally conscious society and individual.

>it was trending that way to begin with

It surely was, I mean, even Lincoln wasn't down with the social equality thing. But don't you think it accelerated the process, at least a bit?

>because their community has fallen to shit

I don't really feel qualified to make a value judgment on that, tbh. I don't know everything about what the black community was like then versus what it's like now, nor can I claim to be intimately acquainted with any causal factors in any real or perceived shifts. I do think they have vastly more opportunities now than they did then, which is really my primary basis for saying they're better off. But even that, I say as someone on the outside looking in, and it certainly can't be argued that the Civil Rights Act magically fixed everything, nor that the things that have gotten better got that way solely because of it.

>Italians, Irish, and Catholics

Well, it's good that in the long haul, things have gotten better for them. I hope that, in the end, all groups can have that outcome.

Although I don't necessarily think things have completely died down for them either, have they? It's still around, just as more of a fringe thing. I guess that will probably always be around, though.

>Still think that?

Yeah. We view things from different angles, but it seems we've got similar ends in mind. Plus you strike me as having way more integrity than most of the clowns in DC. The US needs a true liberal party.

>and see it as a really cheap band aid that, when it dosnt include everyone, can actually be its own form of social segregation

Well, ideally it would include everyone. I'd argue that adding sexual orientation and gender identity serve to make it more inclusive, not less.

But yes, it kind of is a cheap band aid in the end. Even the civil rights leaders of the era saw it as a half-measure better than no measure, a step in the right direction, not a panacea.

Starshine!Laura/wmXM (ID: ae7498)Country code: ponychan.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  207374

Anyway I gotta drive for 6 hours lol

Mikie(phone)!GlimDubEqI (ID: 6062e3)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  207376

>>207374
Ouch

See you soon, my friend.

Drive safely

Admiral (ID: 9d6b80)Country code: cascadia.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  207377

>>207374
Stay safe!

Mk17 (ID: a15db9)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  207380

File: 1544120573581.png (250.25 KB, 435x460, h7567h7.PNG)

>>207374
Have a safe trip! Ill respond to your other post after work.

Be excited for new beginnings!

!XSAILBoatg (ID: f4a40d)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  207382

>>207374 where are you going?

!ScyphTlOY6 (ID: 1a6f7b)Country code: ponychan.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  207410

>>207382
She's moving from Phoenix, AZ to Fort Collins, CO.

!XSAILBoatg (ID: f4a40d)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  207594

>>207410 interesting. what's in Fort Collins?

!ScyphTlOY6 (ID: c840e0)Country code: ponychan.png, country type: customflag, valid: 1  207719

>>207594
Radon.

!XSAILBoatg (ID: f4a40d)Country code: us, country type: geoip, valid: 1  207735

>>207719 how cancerous


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