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File: 1512577127325.png (524.99 KB, 754x904, 1508541029340.png)

American dream/self-made millionair/start your own business! meme Chewy {Element Of Fortitude}!MUSIC.FbVY 827592

So I'm gonna try and talk about this without going into personal detail because I don't want to try and sound like this is about me or my family, BUT this is something I've talked with people about and seen a lot of people talk about.

Basically it's just how the older generation(s) (boomers and what not) still cling to this belief that literally anyone can just pick themselves up by their bootstraps and work themselves out of any shitty financial situation, like all it takes is just some real hard work, but the REALITY is that many people in America are working to their maximum capacity, like 2-3 jobs, 6-7 days a week, and this is also often in addition to raising one or more children, and even all of that is barely enough to have an average lower-middle-class home and lifestyle.

Not to mention the people who have trouble finding any job in the first place, let alone a dream job that could actually lead to a grand lifestyle. And that's of course where the boomers will say "well go to college then!" but like, I don't think people just GO to college, there's a huge financial aspect to that that ends up putting tons of people in debt way over their heads, sometimes for degrees that don't even guarantee them that great of a job. Like, I want to go to college, but I'm gonna make absolutely sure I do it in the right way for me.

This whole idea of "anyone can make it, grab life by the balls, etc." is such a fantasy and the idea that most people aren't wildly successful "is because they're just lazy" is downright insulting.

AND all of this doesn't even take into account the issues people with physical and/or mental illness have with working or finding work or the amount they can handle working etc. (which is often less than regular people).

I don't know much about economics but based on my experience in life, it seems to me like the middle class is practically melting into what used to be considered "poor". I know for fact that the cost of living where I live has skyrocketed over the course of the last 20 or so years. But the amount that the jobs people work pay to said people has barely changed if at all.

And boomers will always point to these cherrypicked examples of exceptional situations of shit like some amputee becoming an award-winning millionaire but like, that is by far the exception to the rule, that's not something that anyone can just do, you know? Or they bring up famous politicians and celebrities but ignore the fact that they were born into money *cough*Trump*cough*

Oh and one more thing, the whole "DUDE JUST START YOUR OWN BUSINESS LMAO" thing is absurd because for one, starting a business requires a lot of money and likely employees as well and the average middle-class citizen can't just pull that shit out of thin air. Not to mention that the business market is already dominated by multi-million/billion-dollar corporations who wouldn't hesitate to crush a smaller business owner trying to start out. We're not in the 1800s or something anymore, the big players are mostly already established.

What do you guys think of all this, or have to add? Am I wrong about this stuff? Curious to hear people's thoughts.

Side note: I don't understand why huge corporations have so many staunch defenders when those defenders are the same people that the corporations they're defending are buttfucking them regularly. Like I see people say stuff like "why do you whine about BIG BUSINESS so much, give them a break" but like, they don't need average citizens to defend them from other average citizens, that's completely asinine, I'm sick of seeing apologists for the atrocious shit that oil companies and the like do.

827598

File: 1512579263844.png (945.27 KB, 1280x720, Trixie_makes_a_realization_S6E…)

The problem is the educational system.

You see, back in the Boomer generation a highschool diploma actually meant something. It was enough to go out there and make a career out of. College was still a thing but that was for advanced jobs like science fields, engineering and legal work.

You could get an office job with just a highschool diploma since the skills required for those types of jobs at the time matched up with what was taught in highschool.

However as time has gone on, jobs have become much more advanced and complex. The requirements and skills needed to get above minimum wage jobs are not taught in elementary/highschool and this is where the issue lies. As technology advances and new skills are required of the workforce, the education for these skills are not being offered in general education, they are being offered in colleges. Which is not a good thing. Colleges are prohibitively expensive for the average person.

So locking everything but the most BASIC skills behind a paywall obviously is going to have the effect that the majority of your highschool graduates are only capable of working the most basic retail jobs. When you oversaturate your job market with workers who are not capable of doing anything but minimum wage work, minumum wage becomes the new mainstay of your work force, which is ultimately bad, because minumum wage determines cost of living.

So what happens is that since the majority of your work force is full of minumum wage employees, that wage has to be way higher than it should have to be because so many people rely on it, and because of that, the poverty line goes up with the cost of living. Which in turn takes people who would have been considered middle-class in the 40-50's to barely above the poverty line since that line keeps rising.

And this will continue to happen until the educational system is revamped to reflect the needs of the workforce, instead of allowing colleges to have a monopoly on everything beyond the most basic of functional education.

If you want to fix the problem, you need to re-evaluate our incredibly outdated educational system and move some of the college only classes over to being available to highschool students.

As it stands we have so many pointless classes in school that are a waste of time and resources because they are no longer relevant in a modern economy or society. Especially with the advent of the internet. The need to cram as much information into a kid as possible is no longer necessary since those kinds of things are now readily available via smart devices. A lot of what is taught in schools can be condensed to allow for more advanced classes that actually have practical application in a modern workforce. Until this happens we will keep pushing out an unskilled workforce without an economy capable of sustaining it.

algol 827603

>>827598
I think this is a good point about high school not teaching work skills really. There seems to be a growth in sending high school kids to take college classes part time and the sort of vocational training we used to have is being introduced in some places but it's not really enough.
Things like how auto repair, woodshop, etc. used to be a common class in high schools. When I took high school, I took a few tech oriented classes but they were all oriented towards going to technical college rather than skill training and back in the day, everyone was required to take one of them.

Things like hell, my dad took home ec, machining and computer classes in high school. Because of that, he had basic skills for cooking and managing finances from home ec as well as some basic trade skills. The computer class was obsolete by the 80's but it helped him understand the general ideas still behind how computer hardware works. So say, knowing how punch cards work isn't applicable nowadays but knowing how RAM and phone systems work has helped him stay more tech literate than most boomers.

There are more reasons as well though why most of the young work force is ending up in minimum wage jobs, which of course lower demand which means businesses make less money which means they can't afford to pay their employees as much since there's less demand, there's less demand pressure on supply side to lower prices. So having a large amount of people working minimum wage does make for a higher cost of living and lower profit in general but not quite in the "raising minimum wage makes cost of living go up directly as businesses raise prices." It's sorta more roundabout than that.

A big thing I notice is that it's impossible to get a semi-skilled job without some sort of certificate from a college. Now back in the day, a lot of these certificates would be provided by either unions or private businesses. Private business certs tend to be suspect because they're usually of lower quality or only accepted by that business. This paywalling of certs into colleges has really destroyed the traditional apprenticeship model.

Say you have a master electrician higher a random 18 year old kid to do work for him. Now, there's not much the 18 year old kid can do other than sweep so he has to go to a college to get a basic electrical cert. In a traditional apprenticeship, the kid practices under the masters cert until he's able to take some sort of exam and be declared an apprentice or journeyman electrician. This way, a person can move up the ranks of a trade without having to go to college.
The way a union cert would work of course is that the cert is granted by the union if they pass a test. These are actually pretty high quality since the more prestigious and hard they are to get, the more bargaining power the union has since they can say "Our test is harder than the colleges so our guys deserve a higher wage since they can prove they're more skilled." In a situation where unions and certificates are less regulated and more free market like back before 41, this was actually one of the main roles of unions.

827604

File: 1512582574468.png (398.61 KB, 588x616, 676787987987.png)

boomers were born into a time were these things were true for the most part

they could just walk down the block and likely be hired in a instant

however, they still believe america to still remain that way

algol 827605

>>827603
Basically, destroying the traditional apprenticeship model has caused your basic jobs that pay 3 or 4 bucks above minimum wage and serve as entry level to a skilled labor field are now paywalled or unavailable in high schools.
This means some kid out of high school, rather than getting a 12 an hour job and learning skills that can be applied in higher level jobs, goes into a 7.25 an hour job with no opportunity for further advancement unless they spring like 6 grand a year to go to community college and then be able to work a 12 an hour job in a year.

Reaver 827608

Welcome to reality, where pride matters far more than ratio, especially in a country where it has been fostered so overtly.

But on the other hand: If the boomers were to come to terms with this a lot of views on American history and identity would shatter, so it's not that hard to understand why they preserve that pride.

Add to that chronic unwillingness to invest in your people and the structure of your country and it's basically all made-in-China quality growth.
After all: Why bother making something decent when you can just replace it continuously?
Or so the naive thought often goes.

It doesn't help that economics, that social science of which it is becoming ever clearer that it is just the western variety of the empty-headed socialistic studies that were once so valued in the east, is held in such high regard in the US to the point that it has spawned complete sub-ideologies.
I swear even Serbia's absurdistic nationalism is less of a trainwreck.


On the bright side this does help understand the appeal of Bitcoin a bit better; the US may be a trainwreck but it is nonetheless a trainwreck with huge media coverage and thus media influence.
This post was edited by its author on .

!gEapIYWEa2 828057

File: 1512639503580.jpg (197.04 KB, 625x918, advice, meme, photo, caption, …)

We've been forced into a system where nothing besides employment is rewarded. That's a problem, because in a post-scarcity society, not everyone has to work all the time. In fact, not everyone can work all the time. Basically, we're doing well enough that everyone should be rewarded merely for being a good person, and the rich are stealing everyone's rightful rewards and funneling it all into their own accounts. Fair is fair!

We need an economy that doesn't only depend on money, and fast...

!RISkQqf4EM 828070

>>827592
real wages have gotten lower while the cost of living has gone up. we're well past due for a minimum wage increase. wages did not increase even as productivity increased because out overlords can and will keep all they can for themselves.

828079

File: 1512669387539.gif (384.3 KB, 500x500, 22d1b379e44af303c1da89ceb6d5ff…)

>>828070
Minimum wage isn't the problem. The problem is that the only workers being produced by our current educational system are minimum wage workers.

People making minimum wage should only be like 20% of the workforce, not 80%. That's where the problem is.

!RISkQqf4EM 828082

>>828079
has nothing to do with education and everything to do with what employers offer as a pay rate (which is always the minimum they can get away with)

unlikeable pony 828085

>>828070
Good luck at that with trumpkins and the republicans at the helm.

They're too busy giving the 1% tax breaks to worry about that.

Anonymous 828105

>>828079
That's not true. The problem is that 80% of degrees are worthless, and morons don't actually look for useful degrees.

algol 828107

>>828105
The thing is though that you shouldn't need a degree or a couple years at a tech school to get a worthwhile job. It delays the ability of the young to advance their careers and contributes to a massive growth in minimum wage workers if anything beyond that is paywalled into college.

Anonymous 828113

>>828107
True. You do not need a college degree or a few years at tech school to get a good job.
You need experience.
Schools give that, in most cases. Or at least, that's the idea.

There's no difference, ultimately, between going to a trade school, and taking an apprenticeship under someone. The goal is the same. Learn the job, gain experience to do the job, and start higher in the career.

algol 828115

>>828113
Except if you work for a company in say HVAC, you'll never be paid over 12 an hour until you go back to school. That's the whole thing, the traditional apprenticeship model has broken down.

Anonymous 828117

>>828115
>work for a company
There's your problem.
You've looked at it through the wrong lens.

algol 828120

>>828117
Not everyone can go be an independent contractor when they're a kid out of high school with no connections or reputation (which are the most important things to getting reliable work as independent contractor) while the actual certificate to legally advance or do anything beyond being a gopher is damn near impossible unless you're with a recognized company due to various regulations that trade organizations lobby for to protect their jobs.

Like if you practice any sort of skilled trade labor without a license of some kind, as in you're "just start a business lol" example, disregarding the grand or two that you'll need to buy tools for any sort of skilled trade job, then you're almost certainly breaking the law. You can work that way but you'll never be more than barely above poverty until your enterprise becomes legal.
One of the ways to make ameteur contracting legal is to have a licensed person overlook you. If you just start on your own, you're essentially a day laborer. You can make enough money to survive if you're good at it but there's zero career advancement until you work under someone or join a company.

Going independent at 18 with no experience in the field is a retarded decision. You can get a job under a guy but because of the way apprenticeship regulations work, you're locked in with that guy with low pay for several years unless it's a union job or you decide to advance your career by a couple years by going to school. The guy looking for an apprentice can hire someone who can only legally be a glorified gopher until he's held that employee for 2 or 3 years, or he can hire some 19 year old kid who went to a tech school.

Basically, the way trades work are all fucked up right now when it comes to starting a career in them if you can't afford to go to school.
This post was edited by its author on .

Anonymous 828122

>>828120
Small businesses are the largest job source in the United States, last I checked.
Regardless, that doesn't particularly matter: You've already established that they could get a job with the company, just at a low wage.
A low wage to start with is normal, perfectly fine.
That job is a stepping stone. You use that job to go to other, better jobs. You use that job as a basis of experience.

No, in all likelyhood, you are not breaking the law. Unless you can show me the law, I'm not inclined to believe you, as I've dealt with primarily small businesses, usually staffed by only one or two people, when it comes to most repairs, be it vehicle, air conditioning, or fuck, even internet, though that's usually contract work.

Yes. It is. Which is why you start at the company, or you start at the trade school, or you start at the apprenticeship.
Again, this is a STEPPING STONE
You do not work there your whole life.
You have this rather retarded look of 'YOU MUST ONLY WORK FOR THIS AREA FOREVR'.
No.
That is not how the world works.

828123

File: 1512684921617.png (830.94 KB, 900x624, trixie_by_atryl-d5renj9.png)

>>828122
If that's the case why do people complain that minimum wage is not a living wage if, like you say, it's not meant to be anything more than a stepping stone?

Because I agree, it's supposed to be a stepping stone, not a career. So why is it that everyone insists that a minimum wage job be as solid as a career when it's not intended to be?

Anonymous 828125

>>828123
Because they're fucking morons, and miminum wage is indeed living wage.
It's not supposed to be, but it is.
I blame the countless peons going into jobs like McDonalds and treating it like a career, when all it's supposed to be is an easy way to build up some capital to get an education, or to get what you need to go somewhere higher up.

algol 828127

>>828122
The problem with it is that the traditional entry level position in a trade type company has broken down. The company has no incentive to hire an 18 year old kid with no experience when they can hire from the glut of 19-20 year old kids with a certificate. It's cheaper to hire a kid out of a trade school than it is to offer an apprenticeship.
As well, the wages for entry level positions at these kind of small businesses have plummeted due to regulation. We're in a world where a 16 year old kid isn't allowed to work the toaster oven at subway, trade jobs are even more intense with how many basic tasks require some sort of license. This sort of intense regulation makes the unlicensed super unproductive since they can only be a glorified gopher and manual labor unless they go to school or they're kept with the company for 3-4 years.

The issue at hand isn't that a kid can't get a basic minimum wage job. Or that someone with skills can't advance. The issue is that advancement between your low pay unskilled jobs and your working class semi-skilled jobs has had huge regulator and business barriers put into it. So the kid gets an unskilled job, but it's become much, much harder than used to be in the past to work your way into the next tier of jobs.

Like, your pay in these sort of jobs doesn't just endlessly increase the more experienced you are at them. You hit a cap real early until you're able to obtain some sort of license. Basic tasks now require a license which lowers the cap on an unlicensed persons advancement while getting a license has become more expensive and difficult than it used to be in the past.
This post was edited by its author on .

CPU education!wG1CV58ydQ 828136

>>827598
This makes me wonder why nothing has been done to the education system.

!RISkQqf4EM 828137

File: 1512690170955.png (76.19 KB, 210x245, 130731157746.png)

>>828127
algol tells is like it really is

Anonymous 828138

>>828136
it's an investment that costs a lot of money for results that take longer than 4 years
the education system in america is fundamentally fucked to the point where it's gonna take a generation to fix it

Anonymous 828141

>>828127
SOME jobs require a license. Not all. Maybe it is different where you live, but where I am, you usually do not have to worry about it.
Even then, most licensing at that are simply government tests to take.
Perhaps where you live is a government restrictive hell hole, though. Laws are different around the world.

algol 828148

>>828141
Where I was in georgia, a license exam had to be scheduled about 7 or 8 months in advance, usually cost 600-2K to take, required some sort of sponsoring body, and your average unlicensed person who's 18 and doesn't have experience would make about 100-200 a week with their income being super irregular. Some people have been doing various trade work for years but unless they're licensed in something high profit like crane operating, welding, electrical, etc. then they're making 3-5 hundred a week usually. Enough to live on but not near as much as that sort of work used to make. Essentially your unlicensed person, even ones who have good reputations and lots of experience, are squeezed out as the list of "You can't legally do this without a license" has been growing for a few decades. Hell, doing scrap metal, the fallback option for when you're unemployed and poor in my family since the 20's, started to require a license in Georgia back in 2012.

With unlicensed people of course, a lot of times someone with a license or cert can massively increase their money by also doing unlicensed work. Since trade work a lot of times boils down to "hustle for work for a week or two with a fuckload of downtime and no income, then make a lot of money while busting your ass every day for 2 weeks. Repeat this endlessly." I mean, the main thing a company really offers a trade worker is that the company can source work for them rather than them having to find it themselves.

That's part of the general trend of the hustle being outlawed. It's illegal to sell cd's and tapes on a street corner in most major cities nowadays. This outlawing of the hustle not only makes it harder to survive while unemployed, it fucks the self employed since self-employment is just professional hustling with a higher skill level for the most part.

If we're talking on the macro level scale of an entire economy, the fact that it's technically possible to just work harder than you used to have to work doesn't mean it's acceptable. The unacceptable part is that the level of difficulty in moving from working poor to working class has increased 10 fold in the past 20-30 years.
This post was edited by its author on .

Anonymous 828164

>>828127
Sure, some companies won't hire you without experience. Some still will, of course. Still, I blame this on minimum wage, myself.
Which given your next lot, I'd say you're okay with accepting. Jobs are overregulated, and that's bad. Still, you can use these jobs as stepping stones. The origin of this discussion is >>828079 where it was said "Only workers being produced by our current system are minimum wage workers".
I disagree, as you can use a solid degree to work towards a higher paying degree.

Sure, I don't disagree with that. Overregulation is a problem. Doesn't mean you can't do it, though.
It's just harder than it should be.

Yes, but only in certain fields. Regardless, you ask me the ultimate goal ought to be to start your own business at that point, anyway. As inevitably, you will reach a cap, regardless of where you work or what you do. A welder can only make so much, licensees be damned.

algol 828177

>>828164
>I disagree, as you can use a solid degree to work towards a higher paying degree.
The hard part is barriers towards getting that degree in the first place.

Essentially our labor market is structured with three very large barriers that have popped up in recent years. It's difficult to go from working poor to working class, difficult to go from working class to middle class and very difficult to break from upper-middle class into upper class. Class mobility is grinding to a halt in America compared to any other developed nation in the past 20 years.

This is one of the top 3 reasons you see damn near everyone going to school and giving all this money to the over inflated pricing of college. Just working a job doesn't provide the class mobility you keep saying it does like it used to. As the possibilities for upward advancement that can be gained by advancing in the work force dwindle, it becomes mandatory that a person go to college to attain any sort of quality of life. With this massive increase in demand for college degrees, of course you see the colleges raising prices while also making it easier to get them. Easier college degrees increase the supply to feed the demand of their corporate partnerships(if there's less advancement in careers but the same amount of jobs are needed, the demand for skilled labor goes up). It's simple supply and demand caused by lack of upward mobility that ends up creating further barriers to upward mobility.

As far as starting a business goes, the days of spending 500 bucks to open a hot dog stand are long over.
This post was edited by its author on .

Anonymous 828179

>>828148
License exam for what, exactly?
Crane operation is something that obviously should require the license, and of course isn't really a trade job. As far as welding goes, I can only speak of my father's experience with the lot, which was that most the tests he needed were online, albeit as a major bother, and the only thing he really needed was one odd class sponsored by Austal where they had also taken the expense of said class for the charity tax loss aspect. They didn't require an investment there. Though, he did ultimately do another class later down the line to get a higher grade, I believe, that he did spend the money for. But by that point, he had the capital for it anyway. All the same, it wasn't just a test, it was a class. Though, I grant you, you needed to be experienced enough to know how to learn what was taught there, and some already knew it. Would've been better, in that regard, to simply have one test for the lot anyone can take. But I think with that, they're more worried people'll simply grab answers rather than actually learn.

All this said, though, I do agree with what you've said by large. It's over-regulated, and that's dumb, it really shouldn't be.
Most of this does have a reason, however. It's just that it was implemented, as usual for the government, poorly.
Incidentally, some companies've essentially done the same thing to a much better effect by having their own internal licensing. But, problem is, of course, that's only in the company, not the full field. Lacks standardization.

Anonymous 828180

>>828177
This is true, though I do believe it's the same way in other nations. While you can get more money, often, you can never really go up, as they've got so much protectionism and regulations, it's impossible to, say, start your own business, by large.

You can still move up, though. That's all I'm trying to say. It's much more difficult, sadly. I wish it wasn't, and we ought to get rid of the barriers making it so. But you still can in America.

algol 828186

>>828179
As far as licensing, one interesting bit is that licenses were largely a domain of unions back in the more free market union laws of pre-41.

If people can leave or join unions as they wish, unions are virtually unregulated in the services they can offer, and multiple unions are allowed to compete with each other in a workplace, they can be internally structured in any way the members voluntarily wish for them to be structured, etc. Then unions actually compete to get workers to join them. One of the big ways they'd compete was being able to tell employers "our workers are higher quality than non-unionized workers" which they'd do by competing to have higher quality licenses. If a unions license wasn't accepted by employers it was useless and they'd be unable to attract workers to their union with it, etc.

It's interesting to me, not a lot of "free market" guys seem interested in the economics of labor markets since their whole ideology has an obsession with the business owner. In places with less regulations on worker organization though, you see a much greater variety of worker organization models. Things like how unemployment insurance started off as something worker organizations would offer people who joined them.

Looking at the developed world, many of the highest average wage countries have no minimum wage laws of any kind. Given that government generally sides with capital and represents their interest, it's ridiculous to think that government can put effective pressure for higher wages rather than the workers themselves organizing for higher wages.

Anonymous 828187

>>828186
Kind of sounds like the old trade guilds of yore.
Sadly, it seems American unions've largely been corrupted, anyway. They now serve their own interests, rather than the interests of the workers.

In any case, seems most of this is to be solved by deregulation.

algol 828188

>>828187
As far as unions go, you have mainly the double whammy of the 41-nlra(regulates how they can function, removed most of their tactics, removed services they used to offer, makes for 1 union per business rules, regulates voluntary association of workers to an absurd degree, pretty much a lobbying effort by industrial manufacturers of the time) and RTW laws where the government jams their dick into how voluntary contracts between an employer and an organized group of workers can function.

It's something that bothers me with a lot of so called free market people where they seem to have a massive obsession with protecting the rights of business owners and glorifying them while having no problem with regulating labor out of its ability to organize for its own interests. Or even if they tactically accept that a right to voluntary association does apply to workers, they seem hostile and nauseous at the idea of employees forming a group to advocate for themselves. Then they seem confused as to why this unequal implementation of "free market policies" seems to only increase the power of wealthy business owners without benefiting anyone else.
This post was edited by its author on .

Anonymous 828190

>>828188
Sounds to me like more of an issue of people not knowing about it. First I think I've heard of most this. Though, I knew of some of it at least.
Still an issue of overregulation, so I hope most free-marketers'd look at it. Personally, I've never disliked unions as a whole, as much as American unions, who I see to be mainly corrupt entities often working with the government to essentially secure a monopoly on workers' money.

Old unions were rather essential in securing many worker's rights and such. And otherwise, collective bargaining seems to be essential for a healthy marketplace. It's no different, as far as I am concerned, from 'consumer revolts' where a group boycotts businesses.

I think that's something a lot of folk fail to realize about labor.
It isn't them providing you a job.
It's you providing them labor.
You're the one with the commodity for sale.


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