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Aug 27Come say hello to our new !!Pinkie Pie. http://www.ponychan.net/chan/meta/res/160725.html

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62070 No. 62070 Stickied [View]

Greetings and Introductions!

(Written and edited with community input by Strangelove!Doctory2, all credit to them!)

Hello everypony and welcome to /dis/, Ponychan's discussion board. Here you'll find threads ranging from controversial topics such as politics, scientific development and religion, to more lax threads meant to share opinions without being overly formal. As you may imagine, given the freedom to discuss these topics, some ponies may inadvertently say or do things that hinder fruitful discussion and bring about unnecessary conflict. Due to this, we have created a set of guidelines that should be followed. Please make sure to read them before posting, as to avoid any misconceptions or confusion.

Please keep in mind this is not /chat/. Although there's no need to write textwalls (unless you want), try to write more than a sentence or two in your posts, and keep in mind you may have to wait hours for a response. Remember all global rules apply to /dis/, and general respect and courtesy is appreciated in this board no matter your opinions or the opinions of others.

Without further ado, here are the rules of /dis/:

You, Ponychan, and Posting in /dis/

32 posts omitted. (View thread)
>> No. 78189
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Those were golden days.

Oh, also, nice trips

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62209 No. 62209 Stickied [View] [Last 50 posts]
I've long talked about or thrown about this idea in various forms. I wanted to make a place where we could come up with topic ideas for dis and generate them at regular intervals if they seem to have high potential (however you want to define potential).

We have some new structure proposed for /dis/ and its up to us to attempt the new system. This is also a way for us to work on doing threads according to that system and populating /dis/ with those threads.

My brain has been coming up with some great ideas today with other things in my life, and I think I might be able to continue the same mood after I get back from a little social outing/live dubstep event. In the meantime lets hear constructive ideas for thread topics in /dis/ and lets try to decide on one or more for maybe thurs or fri by vote.

Lets take until then to revise and brainstorm on some good ideas for /dis/ topics that will be entirely worthy of being saved to the archives!!
84 posts omitted. (View thread)
>> No. 76069
Anyone else think it would be cool to be able to post video to /dis/ ?

I mean, I love lectures. I love to share them, but, I don't think many people have the patience to listen and watch something maybe 15-60 minutes long.

But I think /dis/ might have a few more of those people than other places.

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78198 No. 78198 [View]
This subject is one that has greatly frustrated me:

Why does this exist? Why must it exist? What point is there in it existing? Is it something to be Prohibited? For this only brings heart ache and ignorance of friendship between boys and girls.
It also brings unneeded drama, and is a weight that many do not need on their shoulders.

Can someone please explain to me all of this?

This comes from me, a 15 year old, who has no dating/girlfriend experience, but has heard much advice and is an outsider looking in on the events known as dating
17 posts omitted. (View thread)
>> No. 78244
If you want some advice, take it from a man whose been through what you're going through: the stench of desperation is unattractive.

generally women want to be with someone who is confident and sure of themselves. If you go around broadcasting that you need a relationship with someone, anyone, right now, does that make a girl feel like her a relationship with you would be special? Or would that be something anyone willing to pay attention to you could have?

Make yourself stop wanting it so bad, and it's a lot more likely that something will come to you. No one wants to be in a relationship with someone who needs to beg for affection.
>> No. 78247
>I have tried to start, but I got rejected a lot as all.
Why are you even asking these question, then? The answer seems pretty obvious.
>> No. 78248
I'm 17, male, and heterosexual and sometimes I feel pretty lonely. I've never had a girlfriend, although I really want one. However, I feel that a lot of teenage friendships are pretty gender segregated because of dating and I don't think it necessarily has to be that way. in my Freshman Sophomore and Junior years, I made an effort to not sit at gender segregated lunch tables which tend to be that way because people find it easier to befriend a gender that they aren't attracted to. As a result I have plenty of friends of both genders as a senior(I say both for simplicity even though I picture gender as a spectrum, not a binary). I've been going on dates with girls, but haven't had a real relationship. That being said I have confidence I will meet someone I truly love. My philosophy is to not let gender stand in the way of friendship and even if you don't have a partner yet, it will happen if you want one.

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78073 No. 78073 [View]

A few months ago, in a chat I used to frequent, I mentioned that I'm a masculist. The response to that... was not pleasant. It came from pretty much complete ignorance of the topic, and by the time the other person realized their ignorance, I was too frustrated to properly educate them.

I'd like to correct that. There's a lot of misinformation about masculism out there, so I thought I might be able to help educate you.

So go ahead. Ask me anything. You can even ask me accusatory questions and I'll answer them. Just so long as it's an actual question, I'll answer it. Keep in mind, however, that if you want me to be specific, you're going to have to put a little effort and open-mindedness into your questions. So you are allowed to ask, "Isn't masculism misogynistic?" However, the only answer you're likely to get is, "Nope."

Also don't be surprised if it takes me a couple of days to answer. I sometimes forget to check Ponychan and it seems that my watched threads aren't working properly, so there's that issue, too.

But if you're patient, feel free to ask away!
25 posts omitted. (View thread)
>> No. 78230
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Well, being inflammatory does seem to be pretty much the name of the game for Paul Elam [www.avoiceformen.com]. He was trying to make a point with that article, sure, but I feel like there were better ways to do it.

Then again, a lot of blogs have linked to that article as evidence that the MRM are all for rape and whatnot, and anyone that clicks the link and reads the article would end up realizing that the person linking to the article is actually doing what Elam is describing in it, so maybe he was right all along. It's the most commonly linked article on AVfM by a long shot, and those other blogs and websites proving his point by linking it could very well be one of the major factors of why AVfM is trending up at a pretty substantial rate and certain blogs and websites that decry it are trending down at that same rate.
>> No. 78233
What is masculism's stance on transmen? Transmen are discriminated against all the time and feminists and LGBT activists often forget about FtM transgendered people. Would a Masculismist be pro transman rights?
>> No. 78246
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Honestly, I was going to say that I don't think masculism has an official stance on transmen, but when you think about it, masculism is a lot like feminism in that it's rather disorganized (moreso, in fact, because of the tendency of feminism to exert social pressure on women that disagree on stances like abortion or dual income families). Masculist writings and sites do seem to be in support of transsexuals, while AVfM has a few different articles on the matter. One I read showed strong support for transsexuals while condemning "trans-activists" for the path the movement has taken. Another is by a FtM transsexual. This doesn't say a whole lot, however. A number of comments on these articles express how often the men and women that frequent AVfM run into feminist transgender individuals and how it seems like an abusive relationship, given feminism's subtle (and sometimes not-so-subtle) stance on it. The same could be said for the MRM and masculism. From what I've seen, masculists and MRAs are generally in support of those that are transgender and transsexual, even if they don't really understand it.

I'll admit that this is an area where I'm not as well-versed as I would have hoped. All I can say is that there seems to be support, but I can't say for sure because, honestly, there could be something I'm just not seeing. I just haven't been that focused on that area enough, but there also isn't a whole lot of focus with masculism when it comes to trans rights; there just seems to be subtle acceptance.

And now I've spent a few hours on this because I got lost in links and I need to get more stuff done today and I'm still lost in links. So much for my reply to Graham.

Last edited at Fri, Aug 22nd, 2014 10:10

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77891 No. 77891 [View]
[#Discussion] [#Question]

In the wake of the UCSB shooting, I'm seeing a lot of internet arguments and blog posts about male entitlement. Indeed, shooting people because you can't get laid is an incredibly stupid thing to do, and Elliot Rodger was an enormously entitled, misogynist twat.

That said, there is a flipside to the issue of "male entitlement"; namely, the notion that if a man is not getting laid, then he has failed as a man. Guilty and stupid though he was, Elliot Rodger did face bullying as a result of his virginity, as do many others. In popular culture, "success" for a man is typically defined as "getting the girl". If a boy has sex with a girl and she takes his virginity, it is said that she "made him a man", as if the mark of a man is whether or not he has had sex. Movies like The 40-Year-Old Virgin portray men who have reached middle age without having sex as childish losers. If a guy is going off to college, he's more likely to hear "don't get anyone pregnant!" than anything else, as if the reason one goes to college is more to have sex than to get an education. If popular culture is to be believed, the most important thing in a man's life is sex.

Why do you think this is? Is this an effect of male entitlement? A cause? A byproduct of survival instinct? And finally, is a male virgin a loser?

Last edited at Wed, May 28th, 2014 22:27

48 posts omitted. (View thread)
>> No. 78238
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Oh, hey, lookit what I found [www.cnn.com].


He... did make it to the sorority. He killed the man at the deli after shooting the women at the sorority. I really don't want to have to explain just how much is wrong with this post, but it's pretty much everything. You really don't seem to know much about what happened, so please educate yourself about it before you try to debate.

>there are valid reasons why his mysogynistic motives have recieved most of the focus.

1. Those reasons only have validity if you view them through a pretty twisted viewpoint, and still doesn't excuse the claim that those men died because of misogynistic motives.
2. Since when has the media reported on anything but the misogyny? Seriously.
>> No. 78240
Ok, I apologize for that, I was going off of my memory of the news coverage at the time, which made it seem like he was stopped by police on his way to the sorority house. I've now pulled up a timeline and saw that it was far more chaotic and less by plan than I had realized.

With that, I would amend my statement to if the sorority door hadn't been locked.
>> No. 78245
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What if he hadn't gotten sick just before the day he originally planned to do the killings?

What if he got a flat tire?

What if someone at any of those locations had had a gun?

If we're talking about theoreticals, then the actual impact of the shootings shouldn't be relevant because there are an infinite number of variables involved. What should be relevant is his motive, which, as I said, was power. But we're talking about the actual impact that that shooting had in terms of lives lost and the motive behind each of those deaths.

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78197 No. 78197 [View]

Does anyone else here practice meditation?

Does it help you?

What forms or methods of meditation do you use?
>> No. 78218
Once in awhile I do a bit of Mindfulness Meditation, as advocated in books by Thich Nhat Hahn [en.wikipedia.org]. Not regularly enough to say I'm any good at it, but I'm at least at the foot of the path.

Meditation is a complicated subject, as different people meditate for different reasons.

Mindfulness Meditation is about keeping your head in order. It's based on recognizing that it's just human nature to be distracted by flights of fancy, and eventually they'll build up and fester until they end up impacting your mental health. Mindfulness Meditation is a relative panacea for mental health, as it's all about cultivating the habit to return to reality, the here and now, not seeking a special (mentally altered) experience, but rather extricating yourself from under the thumb of your predispositions. It's generally recommended by cognitive psychologists as a stress prevention technique.

I think it helps me to remain calm in the face of adversity and gain new insight with a clearer perspective, and I can slow down time a bit by paying attention to it passing, but that's about it. This is the only form of meditation I really use, and my methods are rather amateurish, even if I understand the theory reasonably well. The only negative consequence I can think of is that you end up a tad super-sane, watching all the poor schleps sleepwalking through life without mindfulness is a bit like being the only sober person at a drunken party.

Some people meditate because they want a special experience. Like an out-of-body experience. To get high without drugs. Things like that. This is more or less the opposite motivation to meditate than I have, and so their methods strike me as rather kooky. But who am I to judge?

Last edited at Sat, Aug 16th, 2014 08:07

>> No. 78220
I do from time to time.

I like to meditate in nature. I also like to meditate at home alone usually naked or in my boxers and try to bring natural elements into the house, typically the wind.

There are parts of your body the wind never touches, but it could, and sensationally it can be very intense to feel the wind curl around the small of your back or along your upper thighs.

>Does it help you?
Sure. I use it as a tool to pump my intuition or reflect on things I learned or need to think about. It works very well for these things. So well I cannot describe some of the things I've discovered because we simply don't have the language for it. So if you ask, be prepared to get an answer that is more metaphor than substance.

I mostly use mindfulness but sometimes I like to play with thought constructs.

No. 78199 [View]

So. I've come to a realization: I don't necessarily dislike cloppers, and I don't necessarily think clopping is bad. What exactly does that mean? Maybe someone will write it underneath this...

First thing's first, there are two words that need to be removed from the discussion: "Weird," and "disgusting."

"Cloppers are weird."

Of course cloppers are weird. Weired doesn't signify any moral judgement, it simply means "different from the majority." Bronies in general are considered "weird" by society, and I don't think many of you would say that makes Bronydom immoral.

"Clopping is disgusting."
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>> No. 78208
Honestly, who cares about what you do as long as you keep it to yourself like you said.

The only rules I have when it comes to calibrateing are
-If no one is getting harmed, its a-ok
-Never calibrate to characters I like
>> No. 78215
As long as they're not making what they're masturbating to public knowledge or hurting anyone or anything in any way shape or form, then I have no problem with these people.

If they are doing these things then, to be 100% honest, they deserve to be labeled a 'horse fucker'.

>Never masturbate to characters I like.
>implying your personal favorite character is exempt from this sexualization.

Well, I have news for you: there's going to be someone masturbating to a character you like out there. Always. That's something you have to deal with.

Last edited at Fri, Aug 15th, 2014 11:51

>> No. 78216
I know, its more of a personal rule.

No. 78162 [View]
Youtube embed play button
  So the guy who sings this has been convicted of "

Attempted rape of a child under 13
Sexual assault of a child under 13
Taking, making, or possessing indecent images of children
Possessing an extreme pornographic image involving a sex act on an animal"

How does that make you feel?

20 posts omitted. (View thread)
>> No. 78184
If anybody asks me about my political beliefs, I would usually say I'm a democratic socialist and leave it at that.

Though, admittedly I do have some left-libertarian beliefs.

I also think Obama was the lesser of two evils during the 2012 election in my opinion.
>> No. 78186

I don't care for the music, it's the acts themselves.

Having been raped in junior high, I wouldn't wish it on anyone. I know most people are especially keen on Raping the Rapist as though it's some form of justice, and that always fucks with me.

I just don't want him to hurt anyone else. I just want him stopped. Not raped, not tortured, not beaten or killed, just stopped. Exiling him from the rest of society for a decade, without any further action taken against him? That's stopped enough.

Uh, this has nothing to do with feminism and everything to do with this guy being a remorsless sociopath manipulating his fans into letting him rape their children.
>> No. 78194
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Didn't the extreme pornographic image involving a sex act on an animal also involved a kid as well?

Now that's undeniably fucked up, come on people.

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76893 No. 76893 [View]

Would the world be a better place if people with low IQs were not allowed to reproduce?

Edit: Note that this question does not ask if society should prevent people with lows IQs from reproducing.

Last edited at Mon, Jan 27th, 2014 19:56

49 posts omitted. (View thread)
>> No. 78145
I looked over this web site:

...it seems to be a standard white-power/white supremacist ideological web site. Everything about the site, and the person running it, is in full agreement with all of the premises and statements of white supremicists. However, it clothes itself in intellectualism, quotes from fancy scientific and historical figures (most of which nobody has really heard of), but repeatedly maintains, in a ivory tower and "intelligent" seeming way, the most extreme eugenicist, white supremicist intellectual positions. It sneakily uses terms like "equality" here and there to seem nice, but it is ultimately attacking the concept. If this approach validated ideas, then we could assume Marxism or Freudism was also flawless because Marxists and staunch Freudians do the exact same thing. It is not so.

The term "occidental" is as outdated and archiac and ridiculous as the term "orient". It refers to western white people, but most people don't realize this. Every aspect of the creator and maintainer of this blog, everything he says and does, is essential supporting white supremacy and attacking diversity, egalitarianism and the idea of social progress.

If you are a rightist or conservative I strongly urge you to reconsider knee-jerkingly supporting the guys positions. There is nothing about being a businessman that says you have to take on social conservative, racist (racialist, occidentalist, white supremicist) ideas. There is no real solid reason to support the similar ideas of Fox News and its main ideologue, Austrialian rober-barron Rupert Murdoch. You can think independantly, you can hire nonwhite people who are skilled and capable and weigh the perceived risks vs the good it will do in the long run. You can try hard to convince the poor, whatever their color, that education and reason are the positive path. It is not the time to give up on humanity and go to the path of war, impoverishment, discrimination and genocide that is ultimately offered by the Occidentalist behind his intellectual-soun
>> No. 78185
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A better question would be: does I.Q. really matter?
>> No. 78190
There would be just less dumb people, I don't think it would improve the world, how about lazy people..

I don't think you can kill lazyness for everyone, though.

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78137 No. 78137 [View]
I don't understand trannys who try to fuck girls. I know this one tranny who does that and if he wants to fuck girls, why does he pretend to be one? There are so many less lesbians. Is it just a lesbian fetishist type thing? I don't get it.
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>> No. 78142
Ugh, what the hay, now that it's on /dis/ where it belongs, might as well reply.

The thing is, I've seen it a million times before. You're just feigning ignorance for dramatic effect.
I mean, "tranny"? Seriously?
Even a little kid understands that that is a purposely inflammatory word. You only say it if you are trying to start a fight.
Likewise, if you're been on the internet at all, you understand correct gender politics. You understand that transexualism and sexual orientation are two separate things, you know that you should be calling that person "she" and not "he". You know all of this.
Yet you carry on, flying in the face of common decency. Presumably just for kicks, though far be it for me to assume anything about your personal morals. Maybe you actually believe what you're saying, who knows.
If so, you could at least approach the subject with tact, and respect for the parties concerned. And lack of slurs.
>> No. 78143
>thread using the word "tranny" and saying that trans women are pretending to be girls
>moved to board for serious discussion
mods pls
>> No. 78155
Its not uncommon, the mods move a thread like this to /dis/ to be handled 'srsly' and essentially kill its original intent.

/dis/ might be a graveyard of sorts but the mods are well aware we can bury a thread here too

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78063 No. 78063 [View]

I don't really know why I've come back here. But I have a question for you all.
Is the fandom getting worse or not? Is it possible it only seems like this because of the attention given to the negative actions of the group? Has it always been this way?
On a side note, I hate the very "vocal" memebers of any group, for, in my opinion, they are the reason most people outside of said group dislike it in it's entirety.
Pic unrelated.
2 posts omitted. (Expand)
>> No. 78079
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Summer always makes the fandom seem worse; actually I think it doesn't change very much at all, but without fresh new episodes for people to go crazy over they notice the less desirable aspects of the fandom more.

Whatever. It's an internet fandom, not a magical community. That's why I don't call myself a 'brony'; I think it's a silly label that says nothing about who I am. Also because calling myself a 'brony' inherently links me with all the assholes and sickos who also call themselves bronies (I'm not saying they are a majority at all, but as you say, they're vocal) so I don't.
>> No. 78146
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Worse, better and every synonym only exist in the mind. Something truly cannot become worse, or better because those are perceptions and not qualities.
>> No. 78152
It;s the off-season right now. It always appears worse during that time, because we're all starved for new content. There's only so much non-show content can do to keep us satisfied.

Once the show comes back, it won't seem so bad.

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78148 No. 78148 [View]

Yesterday, me and my gf was eating dinner at my place (she cooked a really good lasagna BTW). As you know, Italian food can be a bit messy. My gf used the last napkin to clean off. Now, I was kinda stuffed and didn't really feel like going to the pantry and opening another pack of paper towels. I just happen to see a sock I had on last night and wiped my mouth with it. It was when my gf lost her shit. It was like PMS on steroid. She screamed and yelled and swore she'd never kiss me again. When I told her to calm down, she dumped me and stormed out. So my question is 1). how do I get her back and 2). how do I get her not to be so squeamish.
>> No. 78149
stop being a fucking slob OP would you kiss someone who had foot sweat on their mouth?
>> No. 78150
Send her a vidya of yourself washing your face along with a note that says, "even dirty boys can be clean sometimes."
>> No. 78151
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guys what do? Recently my girlfriend broke up with me because I gave her a dutch oven. I was laying in bed with her after we had sex and I had to fart. well I thought it would be funny if I gave her a dutch oven so I farted and held the covers over her head and yelled out dutch oven! she screamed anf flailed but I held her head under the covers for a good minute and a half while she was forced to breathe in that foul stink that made people think something died in there. How can I get her back?

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77844 No. 77844 [View]

Do you guys and gals think that Open Marriage is a better option of a lifestyle or the Traditional one?
With an Open Marriage, you can have more fun with other people without feeling guilty than an Traditional and maybe help built a healthy relationship with your partner. In a Open relationship, i know there might be ground rules or do's and dont's.
15 posts omitted. (Expand)
>> No. 77890
I feel like if you truly, TRULY love someone, you won't want to be with anyone except them. If you're with someone and you still are wanting to sleep with other people, I feel like you just shouldn't be getting married.
>> No. 77897
Sounds traditional.

Thats just fine : if you're like the 20-25% of the population who seems naturally inclined towards both traditional marriage and monogamy, then good on you. Helen Fisher reports people like you often make some of the best environments for raising children and will sacrifice happily to maintain it.

But this naturally-inclined-towards-traditional-models + naturally-wanting-to-be-monogamous if this group indeed describes you, is still only 1/5 to 1/4 of the population.
>> No. 78134
I fully support traditional marriage. Marriage without a dowry lessens the value of the bride. Marriage not under the arrangement of the tribe or family is selfish, if young people can't put the needs of the community before their own then they certainly can't put their partner's needs before their own either.

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78118 No. 78118 [View]
I have a hypothetical question.

If a lady has to have a pelvic exam (or any other exam involving looking inside the wahaHA!) and she is a virgin (with hymen). Does the doctor have to break the hymen to do the exam? If so, it seems really messed up, but that's just me.
2 posts omitted. (Expand)
>> No. 78121
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ugh, i tried googling it, but i never found any good answers.
>> No. 78122
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You never know which source is most reliable.

I think a good doctor can definitely do a pelvic exam.
Things need to stretch, but a hymen can take that, as long as it doesn't chafe.

But the whole deal of breaking a hymen being messed up seems a bit silly.
It's supposed to break sooner or later.
>> No. 78123
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Only thing messed up here is the cultural obsession with a woman's technical virginity.

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77964 No. 77964 [View]

For a long time, the entertainment industry on average seems to have been rather against religion and, specifically, Christianity. Think about the last game you played where religion was positively portrayed. Now think about the last game you played where religion was negatively portrayed. In movies, TV shows, and often music as well, religion is rarely portrayed positively, and often negatively.

Yet in recent years, we've had a wave of movies that not only portray religion positively, but Christianity as a central, positive theme. I can think of three off the top of my head, and I rarely pay attention to movies. Les Miserables, God's Not Dead, and Heaven Is For Real all have Christianity as a central theme and portray it overall positively. They were also all commercial successes, in spite of the latter two receiving poor reviews. And yes, Les Miserables has been around for a long time, but the issue is that someone thought it would actually be a good idea to make a movie of it recently. And it turns out that it was.

So here's the question: Could this recent influx of Christian-themed films be indicative of a changing direction in the entertainment industry? Could it be that, in recent years, there's been a change in the average viewpoint of Christianity (and possibly religion as a whole) among film companies? Can you think of any other recent movies that portray Christianity positively, whether as a central theme or not?

Or is that wrong? Can you think of more than a thin smattering of major films like this in recent times that were released before the past couple of years? Is it just a passing fad? Maybe the work of a few unknown film companies and the rest of the entertainment industry won't catch on?

Inb4 people think I'm Christian or atheist

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>> No. 78109
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Oh, don't start with that argument. Everyone does what they do because of the culture around them, whether it's a household culture, a national culture, or a global one. You're assuming that that culture is based in Christianity.

And I have proven that that's bullshit. First by pointing out that parents more prone to abuse would be more likely to own several books on discipline (the reverse causation argument, something that you still refuse to address) and by pointing to the fact that the Schatzes (and others, for that matter) specifically went against the teachings of the Pearls in regards to what they thought deserved "discipline" as well as how severe that "discipline" was. Unless you can show that the Pearls have ever suggested beating a child for hours for something as unrelated to the point of the book (and their teachings, for that matter) as mispronouncing a word, your argument is complete bunk. I have shown time and again that that sort of thing runs counter to the Pearls' writings as soon as the first spark of frustration forms.

So unless you can show that, no. Their teachings have not "convinced several parents to beat their children literally to death."

Last edited at Wed, Jun 25th, 2014 16:52

>> No. 78111

Many of these people have claimed that they were not continuing out of anger, but out of a need to drive the 'rebellion' out of their children.

If someone tells people to take their car up to 80 mph while approaching a T intersection but to hit the brake at 50 meters, are they completely blameless when someone hits the brake at 40 and slams their car into a building?

But lets assume that you're right, that these people got none of their ideas about abusing children from their religion. That despite their own claims, they only call themselves Christians out of convenience.

It's pretty convenient for these horrible abusive people that they have the camouflage of wrapping their abuse in a popular religion, which has been so drummed up in the national rhetoric at this point that it makes many people afraid to stand up to them and challenge their behavior.
>> No. 78116
It would be nice if things were up front. I would probably prefer it too. Not to come off as insulting, but I think that idealism is dangerous to apply in life. If you aren't playing the psychological manipulation game at some level you might be at a loss to mount effective countermeasures. You also are not as effective as your peers or competition willing to engage. Its a Buyer Beware situation and I think its entirely appropriate - if not a bit required - to develop a 'Seller Beware' system. As much as part of me hates to say it, I am cool with a level of manipulation that has a border on the grey primarily because I see it as a required life skill to immunize against like attempts. Its the harm that is done that decides it for me, but it would be nice if things could be presented up front and honestly. We're just so, so far away from that by now as a species.

Additionally, the world of organized religion is rife with such things intentional and perhaps not. I'm prone to find too much meaning in things so its probably also a bit of a personal bias of mine here at work too a bit.

>To me, that makes them trying to push a political issue even worse.

Well, a couple questions. Kind of pointed probes.

- What constitutes an issue as political or not?
- What issues are okay to push and which are not?

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